The things we wish other water users understood about our hobby

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So the recent MOBO bashing thread got me thinking, there's often a lot of this, but very little of it is especially constructive.

So what is it about your particular hobby, be it dinghy sailing, cruising, racing, fishing, MOBOing, jetskiing, waterskiing, windsurfing, kitesurfing or just plain swimming that you don't feel is understood by the other "disciplines"?

From a yacht racing point of view the things that I would like all water users to be aware of are as follows.

Wash - In light airs it can stop us dead, and it will then take us several minutes to get up to speed again. This can easily ruin my race, and thus my day. In stronger winds (say 15kts plus) I really don't care that much about it at all, and if I'm going downwind and you pass behind me making wash that may help me, as I'll be working hard to surf it.

Manouverability - I can spin almost on the spot. I'm used to sailing in very close company with other boats so if you're a cruising boat on starboard and I'm going to duck you I will be cutting it close, it's not arrogance it's just me trying to minimise my loss.

Conceding stand on rights - Very often I meet cruising boats who decide to very kindly concede their starboard tack rights. These boats will always get a thank you wave. However, if you decide to do this, please do so in good time. I sometimes get the feeling that some starboard tack boats take "evasive action" when quite close (say within 50m or so) because they feel I had not seen them. In several cases this has caused problems as I was also avoiding at the same time. Remember, I will not afford you the same level of clearance as a lightly crewed family cruiser, but I will always respect your right to stand on on Starboard. If you feel you have not been seen, then a good loud hail of "Starboard" is preferable to late evasive action, as often I am also planning a late tack or duck. All racing boats will understand and respect hails of starboard.

And as far as on the water goes, that's really about it!

So what aspects of your chosen method of waterborn fun do you feel are missunderstood by others?
 
Understand your reasoning, but as a cruising boat I'm looking for peace of mind that I've been seen. By the time I'm close enough to call starboard on you I've got Mrs SPGE in my ear at max chat telling me to "do something!!!". An early indication that you've seen me or ideally an early change of course is far more consistent with Colregs which, from memory, call upon the give way vessel to take "early action" and to make course changes that are "readily apparent". A minute alteration of course to slip a metre or two under my stern my be good racing tactics but doesn't satisfy the regulations or my heart!

Simon
 
I like to sail on the river. When I turn the engine off to cruise sail I feel a sense of relaxation. Having someone zooming around at speed esp in circles because it's relentlessly noisy and disruptive - it's the opposite of what I am hoping for. I think speed boats are surely exiting and water-ski-ing is brilliant but those people who come onto the river not realising there are speed limits and who seem unaware of their wake frustrate me. The tranquility is valued by the majority (i think) and they spoil my fun when they're having thiers. I would like us to live in seperate areas and share common speed restrictions elsewhere.
I notice we are both asking for a similar thing in some respect: I want motorboats to be noiseless and washless - they can't be. You want to be allowed to tack late to keep your advantage in racing but want others to tack early to avoid you! I'm afraid we are both asking for others to give but without receiving anything much in return.
 
I don't necessarily want people to tack early to avoid me, and if they are the give way vessel then I would certainly let them get very close before I took evasive action if they still weren't avoiding.
The point I was trying to make is that if you are conceding your stand on "rights" then try to do so in enough time so it's obvious that you have done so.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Conceding stand on rights - Very often I meet cruising boats who decide to very kindly concede their starboard tack rights. These boats will always get a thank you wave.

[/ QUOTE ]

You obviously don't sail a Sunsail boat on the Solent/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
We are only FORCED to conceded our rights to avoid our last rites.

It is all written in the rules. It is you that is crashing around at the limit of your ability (otherwise you would not be racing) so it is you alone that has caused the "conceding".

Just because you have a set of hidden rules, the rest of us are using the official international ones. If we did not fear racers incompetence then why was a friend of ours nearly sliced in two when they had a mechanical failure in the path of a racing boat that did not look behind their sail.

It is not for US to call starboard. It is like asking a normal road user to observe the waving of a black flag while driving on the M1. It is nothing to do with our world. It is the racers that must show their intentions.

Just like wind shifts we are obstacles that give advantages or disadvantages to racers. Just because you can probably assume we will continue on our course you seem to think that keeping clear means no contact. You say 50m is too late, but to us it is the point of complete panic at another idiot trying to disrupt a quiet morning. Closest approach to any boat is larger than their crash stop turning circle. Do you know what the crash stop circle for that old long keel yacht in front of you?

If we still had promenading on the quays, like Spain, would you expect to go skateboarding around in amongst the old ladies and not have them trip up or falter as you weaved amongst them. So why do you cause my old boat to suddenly have to do mad manoeuvres as we fear for our hull and maybe our lives.

"Manoeuvrability - I can spin almost on the spot." that is what worries us the most. For some reason we are not invited to the race briefing and have absolutely no idea which buoy you are going around. We also do not know if you are in the race or not. Since I deliberately do not stray into obvious race courses; are you actually part of the race or just practicing with a friend outside the race area? Is it a official race or just a club out for a day of friendly completion. Or are you just a group pretending so that you can cut up as many boat as possible like the jet skis do. Maybe if you actually had a way for a mere mortal to know which races were occurring and which buoys they were using you might have a leg to stand on.

When they do the sand races on motorbikes the area is stringed off and warnings posted. If a yacht club organized a sand race they would encourage pedestrians and their dogs to walk through the course and change the course between heats so the spectators would be come part of the race. All very exciting but absolutely stupid.
 
I know nothing about racing rules and don't intend to find out. Those rules are between the boats racing and surely nothing contravenes Colregs. I wouldn't deliberately or even knowingly impede a racer but hopefully nobody on the water would scare, confuse or potentially endanger any other water user. Would they?
 
If I do not know you are going to duck me at the last moment, and you do not take early and decisive action the onus shifts onto both boats to keep clear. If you do not understand this you should not be sailing.
I race, I also endeavour to keep clear of racers when I am not. Nothing detracts from everyones obligations under the colregs.
In a port starboard incident where there is a hit, as a rule of thumb the blame is apportioned 60/40.
The only thing I wish other users would understand are the basic rules for ALL water users.
 
[ QUOTE ]
We are only FORCED to conceded our rights to avoid our last rites.

It is all written in the rules. It is you that is crashing around at the limit of your ability (otherwise you would not be racing) so it is you alone that has caused the "conceding".

Just because you have a set of hidden rules, the rest of us are using the official international ones. If we did not fear racers incompetence then why was a friend of ours nearly sliced in two when they had a mechanical failure in the path of a racing boat that did not look behind their sail.

It is not for US to call starboard. It is like asking a normal road user to observe the waving of a black flag while driving on the M1. It is nothing to do with our world. It is the racers that must show their intentions.

Just like wind shifts we are obstacles that give advantages or disadvantages to racers. Just because you can probably assume we will continue on our course you seem to think that keeping clear means no contact. You say 50m is too late, but to us it is the point of complete panic at another idiot trying to disrupt a quiet morning. Closest approach to any boat is larger than their crash stop turning circle. Do you know what the crash stop circle for that old long keel yacht in front of you?

If we still had promenading on the quays, like Spain, would you expect to go skateboarding around in amongst the old ladies and not have them trip up or falter as you weaved amongst them. So why do you cause my old boat to suddenly have to do mad manoeuvres as we fear for our hull and maybe our lives.

"Manoeuvrability - I can spin almost on the spot." that is what worries us the most. For some reason we are not invited to the race briefing and have absolutely no idea which buoy you are going around. We also do not know if you are in the race or not. Since I deliberately do not stray into obvious race courses; are you actually part of the race or just practicing with a friend outside the race area? Is it a official race or just a club out for a day of friendly completion. Or are you just a group pretending so that you can cut up as many boat as possible like the jet skis do. Maybe if you actually had a way for a mere mortal to know which races were occurring and which buoys they were using you might have a leg to stand on.

When they do the sand races on motorbikes the area is stringed off and warnings posted. If a yacht club organized a sand race they would encourage pedestrians and their dogs to walk through the course and change the course between heats so the spectators would be come part of the race. All very exciting but absolutely stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hadn't meant this to turn into a racer-cruiser debate.

It's unfortunate that you feel like this.

If you are being forced to concede your rights by racing boats then I appologise on behalf of the racers in question, that is inexcusable. Believe it or not the vast majority of racers are indeed aware of the collision regulations, and how to apply them to any other boats we may meet.

One thing I would very strongly dissagree with though is your assertation that it is not up to cruisers to call to racers (or anyone else for that matter). One thing I have learnt over many years of racing and many more years of cruising is that communication solves all sorts of problems. The misconception that calling starboard is an agressive "racing" thing to do is in my opinion a dangerous thing. It's not an aggressive thing, it's a polite hail that basically means "have you seen me?"

As far as I am aware I have never caused any cruising boat to do "mad manoevers". The only "mad manoevers" I have ever seen when cruisers with stand on rights meet racers have all been by racing boats.

I take your point about the point of closest approach being close by cruising standards. However I don't think that it is necessary to stay outside the zone of crash stop as you suggest. As you quite rightly point out, you are obstructions. A good racer plans ahead and picks the best line, but there will still be times when you wind up in the line of fire.
If you're on starboard and I'm crossing close ahead you will probably get a hail from me "Can I cross?" If you say no, I'll either duck or tack. I'll be cursing you under my breath...... but I won't push it. If I'm crossing close behind then I will come close. The only exception to this is if I'm overpressed and in danger of broaching. That point is going to be about 20kts tws.
 
quote: One thing I have learnt over many years of racing and many more years of cruising is that communication solves all sorts of problems. endquote

The colregs as they stand are not intended to include any communication at all. The MCA suggest that even VHF comms is a bad idea. You clearly do not have a clear idea of the colregs.
 
[ QUOTE ]
You clearly do not have a clear idea of the colregs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since I used to teach them, I bloody well hope I do!

I'm not talking about using VHF, but a quick hail along the lines of "can I cross?". Obviously if you get no response then obviously you have to make the same assumtions as you would normally. The Colregs were never intended to take the place of common sense.

It's all about courtesy and respecting other water users, which was exactly what I originally intended this thread to be about.
 
Silly moboer question.

What makes it obvious to a non sailer and non racer that a sailing yacht is racing? Dinghies are easy, they clump in harbours or fill the river. Solitary dinghies are either really good or dreadful at racing. Pro yachts are easy too: sponsor's logos everywhere. I'm wondering about the keen club racer with a, to me, "normal" yacht.
 
All the crew sat with legs over the side is a good clue.
As is the colour of the sails, if they're not white but brown or black or see through then it's a racing boat. Such boats will normally only fly a headsail when actually racing to avoid unecessary wear and UV exposure.
In light winds, if it's actually sailing it's almost certainly a racing boat if all the crew are sitting on the low side.
 
It is very similar to when I used to go Ice Skating in the 70's in Birmingham. Most people were skating at a similar speed in large circles around the Ice. Some young skaters, quite a few with large, colourful wooly hats, would delight in racing around at top speed, zig zagging through the assembled masses and generally causing a few of the less experienced skaters to fall over. They were having fun and in their eyes keeping out of everyone's way.
 
Many years ago, while I was teaching my son to handle our Dory, I told him to "show the side of the boat" to another boat. What I meant by that was, when you take avoiding action make it clear what you are doing. I try to do similar things now while sailing. There are times when a wave before boats pass is a good idea, it says, I know you are there and I am taking appropriate action.
To go back to the original question, I would like mobos to look behind themselves as they pass other boats. This is not a rant! It is just that I have suffered from a few people who are being "nice" and dropping off the plane to go passed me slowly. There have been times when the should just keep going as the wash can be less on the plane. Also, some boat put out extra wash as they drop off the plane and I have been hit by that a couple of times.
Allan
 
The ONLY reason for communication at sea (verbally or VHF) is to alert some one to your existence.

It is should not be used to negotiate, in any way.

Q: "Can I cross"

A: "Yes, since you are so close to talk clearly I suggest you use the cockpit!"
 
[ QUOTE ]
Silly moboer question.

What makes it obvious to a non sailer and non racer that a sailing yacht is racing? Dinghies are easy, they clump in harbours or fill the river. Solitary dinghies are either really good or dreadful at racing. Pro yachts are easy too: sponsor's logos everywhere. I'm wondering about the keen club racer with a, to me, "normal" yacht.

[/ QUOTE ]

A yacht in a race does not fly an ensign but a flag indicating which "race-class" (code-flag / pennant) he is in. Technically they should probably fly the ensign after the race on the way back to port, but I have never seen it done.

http://www.yachtracing.com/technicaljournals/Code%20Flags/codeflagsracing7.html

Marc.
 
Something that can cause friction is that racers get used to cutting things close, for example other boats, buoys, etc. We don't mean to do it, and certainly don't mean to upset other water users, but it's something that is almost instinctive.

So where a non racer is getting frightened or anxious about possible collision, the racer is usually well aware of the circumstances and is taking what seems to them to be completely adequate avoiding action.

I don't necessarily agree about 'how to indentify racers'. We have some races in our Club and these are keenly contested, although we have a cruising boat with ordinary white sails (we don't fly an ensign when racing though). I had a mild contretemps a month or so ago, when I called a racing dinghy on starboard. A very annoyed dinghy sailor yelled 'we're racing!' - my reply was 'so am I, and I'm on starboard'
 
[ QUOTE ]
Silly moboer question.

What makes it obvious to a non sailer and non racer that a sailing yacht is racing? Dinghies are easy, they clump in harbours or fill the river. Solitary dinghies are either really good or dreadful at racing. Pro yachts are easy too: sponsor's logos everywhere. I'm wondering about the keen club racer with a, to me, "normal" yacht.

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy - complete disregard for everyone else on the water whether stinky or raggy, constant calls to Justin and totally unnecessary Deck Fluff.

You'll know when they've finished racing 'cos they'll proceed at hull speed through a crowded anchorage ignoring the rules of the road and, indeed, everyone else.

Once ashore they'll make a lot of noise, nick other peoples tenders, and fall over a lot.

You may guess I've just survived Dartmuff Regatta.
 
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