The Man from Volvo

[DepSol]

HE SAY NO!

Had a good long chat with Gary Porter (actually he is a nice bloke) from Volvo this morning for 40 mins but at the end of the day they say that none of their parts were faulty so its not their fault.

I agreed with a lot of what he said and in some instances I thought he was right but I still feel at the end of the day the engine is made to go into sea water and if sea water gets into the engine, what its not designed to do, then its a design fault. I dont care if it only happens occasionally or under certain cercumstances, it happens therefore its a fault.

What happens if Merc engines blew up if you started them in gear with out your foot on the clutch, Would Merc say oh you shouldnt be starting them in gear without your foot on the clutch, which you shouldnt but NO they would ensure there engines didnt blow up in these circumstances as that can happen quite easily.

I have been told that at some point in time water went back up the pipe hydrauliced the engine and that is that. Fine, that may well be but it shouldnt be alowed to get that far.

He did also mention that if anybody wants help or advice to contact them and they would be quite happy to help.

I am meeting the independant engineer at the engine tomorrow 11.30am and will see his report at a later stage I am sure. I wll let you know what happens as and when.

Dom


I just want my boat back in the water ;-(

 

[jfm]

Re: Laws of physics (and laws generally)

Sorry to hear that.

The glimmer of good news is VP seem to rest their case on the hydraulic theory. Praps get them to confirm that's their position, in writing

Then escalate the action. Unless I'm missing something, water (unless massively pressurised) cannot get the wrong way past the exh valve of a running diesel engine. I mean, when the exh valve is open that particular cylinder in an engine it is not actually an engine at all, it is a fully functioning displacement PUMP powered by the other firing cylinders and flywheel momentum. No fluid is gonna get past it unless it's at an even higher pressure, which the sea surface ain't. I'm sorry, but the guy is wrong. You will get as much expert testimony to that effect as you need, to blow a hole (hydraulically) in VP's position. Has anyone ever heard of an engine being hydrauliced through the exh side (as opposed to the inlet, which is common)?

 

[Guest]

bollocks to that! that means that there's no way to stop water coming back up the exhaust, and a broken elbow can sink your boat, and V*lv* think that's fine, too, I expect. Stick at it, Dom.

 

[tcm]

hence the engineer. I can put an engine together in which every single component is perfickly fine, but the item as a whole doesn't work, or works a bit and then breaks. I can also invent strange unfathomable, unlikely or impossible reasons why they break when they do. Although customers wd get mightily pissed off, band together as a pressure group, they wd hardly ever go legal. I wd be very very nice to private customer, and wd not look obviously furtive or spiv-like, and offer helpful advice freely, since it costs nothing at all. There is no earthly way in which a catastrophic and rare failure can be casually judged as your nice man seems to have done. I understand that a legal case wd be judged on the balance of probability (not beyond reasonable dioubt) so you need more , and more qualified peeps to counter his argument of "not my fault".

 

[hlb]

The engine is clearly. Unfit for perpose. See a solicitor. If you remember I had the same problem with a pair of new speakers that wife zapped the volume up on and blew there brains out. They claimed they'd been abused. Refunded payment for them when they got County Court summons though.
Eeer. Flags hopefully arriving here um, in a day or two!!

No one can force me to come here-----------
----- I'm a Volunteer!!!

Haydn

 

[jfm]

TCM is completely right on the legals. It is all bal of prob. As said in my post in the uvver thread, you just need to get better expert testimony. And judging by this "Engineer" and his report, HLB's ferret can do it for starters. But make sure yours is better, get a real expert. Yorkshire might be good hunting ground, they would write "bollox" and stuff in the report

Also as mentioned in uvver post, you have to read the wty to find out which legal jurisdiction it's under. Above comments are English law. It wont be Guernsey (fortunately) but might be English (good) or Swedish (unlikely, but possible)

 

[Col]

Sorry to hear that Dom, keep at them. What evidense of this so called water ingress is there ?
Keep us posted.

 

[jfm]

Re No Haydn!!

No No No!! Do not write letters about "unfit for purpose". That's total cr@p (sorry Haydn ). UFP is a UK consumer law concept and you bort the boat in Gsy so UK law irrelevant. Also you have used the boat too long to use the UFP argument. No, stick to a wty claim. The worst thing you can do is write letters mentioning incorrect legal stuff like UFP becos you will look like you don't know what you're on about. In contrast, if you look like the 1 consumer in 100 who knows his stuff and makes no mistakes, they will settle before court.

 

[hlb]

Dont see why. It's a boat engine, Recomended by them for that boat. No different than my speakers. Fact that wife zapped them with full power not relivent. they should have taken it. Same arguement with engine. It's designed to go or stop, in the sea. If it got water up it, it shouldn't have. It's not fit for the job. Dont care about all the others that might have been OK. Anyway how does anyone know if the others are all Ok if Volcro arnt paying??

No one can force me to come here-----------
----- I'm a Volunteer!!!

Haydn

 

[hlb]

Re: Re No Haydn!!

Never said to tell Volvo it's unfit for purpose. Just said it is. Also dont know how long Depsol has had the boat. Presume it's new.
Was forgetting that Depsol was in Jersey, so maybe different. See your point now.
I said it's unfit for purpose so see a solicitor. A Chanel Isles one.

No one can force me to come here-----------
----- I'm a Volunteer!!!

Haydn

 

[jfm]

Re: Legal lecture

In the UK there's a bit of law that said you can have your money back if speakers not fit for purpose. That law simply doesn't exist in Guernsey. That's the difference. If you want to convince a judge in a Guernsey court that a boat engine that has worked fine for months, then bust, but is capable of being repaired, is unfit for purpose, AND that that means the original manufacturer in Sweden (with whom you have no contract other than a wty, by the way) owes you a paid-for repair, be my guest. You will have trouble finding a solicitor to do it on no-win no-fee, however.

 

[kimhollamby]

Re: Laws of physics (and laws generally)

Yes, once back in the mid 1980s. I had an editor on Motor Cruiser magazine who went out on a press trip for the launch of a new outdrive and managed to hydraulic the engine by violently backing the boat up a bit faster clearly than anyone had tried to do it before. The exhaust was open on the cav plate with no flap valve and I guess the ram effect, coupled with what would have been a narrowing tube, overcame everything and wrecked the trials for all the other journos.

I've heard, but never had proof, that boats with open transom exhausts and little in the way of resistance on the exhaust runs have also caused a problem or too in the past if backed up fast.

Pressure is not usual sea level pressure of course; if backing up on an exposed exhaust it can be quite a lot more than that. Didn't read Dom's original post so not sure what was happening when his motor went down. I'll look now.

Otherwise agree that hydraulicing through the exhaust side seems to be much less likely than via cooling water fault or induction side; unless of course engine off and exhaust fills up with water.

kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[jfm]

Re: Laws of physics (and laws generally)

Thanks Kim. Still seems doubtful to me, I mean a very rare event. Agree the water pressure is higher than sea level, due to ram effect. I woud expect most likely to happen at idle rpm, becuase lower exhaust pressure in cyl. If backing up the boat fast, revs would be high, making water ingress up exhaust more likely but ingress into cyl less likely? Praps it happens if you reverse fast, then cut the rpm fast while there's loads of water slooshing in exhaust manifold?

As I recall, Depsol was not up to anything funny (other than praps delivering some contraband Soltron <BG>) so it was normal use. In which case, I think he can run the argument hydraulicing is incredibly unlikely and so something else caused the prob?

Depsol, what were the precise circs? What rpm, going fwd or backwards, etc etc?

 

[DepSol]

Re: Laws of physics (and laws generally)

Forwardout of mooring at appro one knot usual turn wheel to port full over ease her into reverse bring the front aroun and off forward and out of the marina @ 4knots out of harbour @ 6 knots accelerate up to 25 knots until coming up for bouy 'Vivien' then ave her a bit more welly in a sharp chop up to 32 knots over ground slowed to 25 turned to port into ST Sampsons harbour and slowly decreased speed until thru harbour heads at 8 knots and then aimed for refueling berth and put engine into neutral as I got the ropes ready to throw, got near wall wheeel to starboard full into reverse back end comes in then engine alarm (oil) went beep threw rope then alrm went ape sh!t turned off engine then ran to rear of boat to tie up against ladder, refueled lifted engine hatch and black stuff every where.

Judging bt the pistons Volvo think that it had hydrauliced a while back but I had not noticed a drop off in power or anything wrong from the gauges as I check it all regulary whilst going along, They say it wouldnt have lost alot of power from one cylinder not working properly if the other 5 were chugging away.

I am just totally bewildered that all this has happened. He told me to go back and think how it could have happened but dont know where water with enuf pressure could have shot up the ehaust never taken a big one up the rear (oooer). I even have a wave wall in the marina so just cant think, he said it might be someone speeding in the marina caused it, but why just my boat why not the saga 26 wth a volvo next to me. Also if anyone knows the albert marina there is not enuf room to do more than 3 knots without crashing!

Just sick to death about the whole thing, $48k on a new boat (August 2000) and now I cant use it and am looking at a large bill to get it back in the water.

Just not happy that Volvo knows this happens but wont invent something to stop it from happening even if it is a rareity IT STILL F@*^$£ HAPPENS



Dom


I just want my boat back in the water ;-(

 

[kimhollamby]

Re: Laws of physics (and laws generally)

Reverse fast and then cut throttle is exactly the technique employed in the incident I described I believe.

I've just read some of the previous posts and there seems to be talk of the piston burning through. I believe there was an early batch of pistons produced for KD42s that had this problem due to insufficient oil cooling under the piston crown - might be worth checking this although have never heard of it happening on late 42s or 43s.

Also was all the valvegear intact? Would be interested to know.

kim_hollamby@ipcmedia.com

 

[DepSol]

Re: Laws of physics (and laws generally)

exhaust valve seating burnt out on piston 6 also.

Dom


I just want my boat back in the water ;-(

 

[Scubadoo]

Re: Laws of physics (and laws generally)

Typical attiude of Volvo, it would seem what happened to you could happen to any of us - centainly made me more wary of reverse!

I am not surprised at Volvo coming up with no solution and lack of help to get this resolved. What would worry me is having it fixed then the same problem reocurring.

I really wish you the best of luck, keep us posted.

RM.

 

[halcyon]

Re: Laws of physics (and laws generally)

Question, is there not a flap on the exhaust exit on the leg ( mates Volvo in his Sealine has ), how did water in volume get past this ?

What is the damage to the piston?

Brian

 

[andyball]

Re: Laws of physics (and laws generally)

Sorry to hear it....Volvo will surely lose much more in sales than they'd spend fixing your engine?.

Water can get back up any exhaust when you chop the throttle quickly....if it happens on cars/bikes in exhaust height puddles, it could happen on an open boat exhaust, dunno if it'd get past the turbo w/o damage though. Of course it shouldn't happen,but.....

I presume they're saying that water may have got in previously, but piston holed at the fuel berth (hence crankcase pressure blowing dipstick out).....maybe your engineer can determine whether hole caused by water.....or lack of cooling? (I imagine the damage would look different under a microscope?....cold water on a hot piston etc....).

Also consider broken oil cooling jet....allegedly causing o'heating + burnt out exhaust valve.....volvo said the rod bent enough to allow the piston to contact it? but not enough to be more than a little rough sounding ! See if your engineer thinks that's possible.

 

[tcm]

burnt valve=forget hydraulicing

if the valve seat is burnt...then it can't have been hydrauliced? cos if hydrauliced the elements of the engine would all be unburnt, one second it's a shiny engine , next second it's bent itself. More likely dropped a valve, or chipped a valve if there's massive scab in the bores? Or cd it have burnt the valce seat and THEN hydrauliced...but that's an engine problem (volvo's) then causing the selfbending of the engine.