The exodus from the Med trickle or flood ?

[devondancer]

My wife and I have just had our first boat (Jeanneau Leader 805) delivered to Puerto de Mazarron in SE Spain and delighted with the mooring and costs. And the weather means we can use the boat practically every time we go over to Spain which tends to be every 6 weeks on average. Last Christmas we could have been out for 10 days out of the 14 we were there. Lift from transport into water 54 euros. A bit cheaper than Universal where she was previously.
Rob.

 

[mont]

ditto here in Mallorca, 20's and scorchio, blue sky all day so keeping up fluids with 25c a can beer. Probably go out to anchor tommorow.
Thinking of breaking out the boat sun shades as same forecast next few days.
82 deg in saloon typing this on free marina wifi.
10m Mooring - 20 % cheaper this year from last.
£100 return flight this time - 6hrs door to boat as usual.
Lifted last week (cheaper than Hull Marina) for annual diy service (UK cost bits) and diy a/f(cost same as UK for med stength).
Friends boat arrives in Mallorca from UK next weekend. Cuttlefish food Festival in town next weekend.
Returning to UK - errr no - someone else can have our uk berth.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Is that really the name of the bay? I was aware that Veruda is actually the name of the small island which protects the bay at its entrance, but it's commonly used also for the bay. Or sometimes "Soline", as an alternative. But I can't remember to have seen the name you mention on my maps. Anyway, this is the bay I was talking about, just in case.
The Brijuni archipelago is another very nice area nearby, though with some anchorage and also navigation restrictions, as I recall.

Yup Uvala Kanalic is the name of that arm of the bay according to my plotter and pilot book and yes it's other name is Soline. Veruda is the other arm of the bay and in fact the marina on the east side is called Veruda Marina. Not sure about the name of the island but I dont think its called Veruda
We also had a bit of a nose about the Brijuni islands but I understand that access is restricted and you have to buy a permit to visit. Apparently it is worthwile doing so. The islands were Tito's favourite summer holiday retreat

 

[MedDreamer]

Crikey, have they now actually got the marina wi fi working?

Are you renting directly from the marina now rather than being ripped of by ahmm "An agent" or has the marina reduced its charges?

I have had many discussions with UK boaters about taking their boat to the Med but can't recollect any with Med based boaters bringing their boats back to Blighty - except MartynK but I think the balance of his mind was disturbed

 

[Tranona]

Anyway, there's no reason for a flood of people leaving the Med to be happening now; Sterling crashed against the Euro more than 2 yrs ago so if a mass exodus was going to happen, it would have happened in 2008/9. As it happens Sterling is recovering a little and the economy has apparently bottomed out so there are nothing has changed in 2 yrs to cause an exodus.

Not sure that is the case. Of course there are people that are hit immediately by the recession - highly leveraged and or sudden drop in income. Therefore some distress sales or repossessions.

However, I think most people who own boats in the Med are well established and can afford to ride out the short term. They are unlikely to bail out quickly and maybe take a hit on the boat, have to sell berth or whatever. I think what is happening now, is that many people are re-assessing the whole deal and weighing up the costs and benefits. There is no doubt these have shifted (particularly costs). Some are cheaper - we pay less for our flights to Corfu than we did 10 years ago, and because it is Easyjet, generally less hassle. But other costs - moorings, work, living etc have more than doubled in £sterling terms in the last 10 years - and much of that in the last 4. Add to that the threat of taxes and political/economic unrest and the whole deal is less attractive than previously, although the weather, scenery and people are still the same. I could get 3-4 weeks charter for what my fixed costs are now, never mind the capital tied up in the boat.

Longer term, though I think many will change their habits - move to cheaper parts or get out altogether, but in an organised manner. Even if my personal circumstances had stayed the same, I would still have seriously considered getting out - not because I would be in financial poo, but because the costs are starting to outweigh the benefits.

No doubt many people are going through this process.

 

[oldgit]

"I know I'm giving Oldgit some ammo"

The really annoying thing was,having got nicely used to the sun the sea the sand the decent wine grub and attractive wimmin and scenery ,my mate went and sold his blimming boat leaving me without my cheap Med boating and the chance to moan about it .
Selfish git.

 

[mont]

Hi Martin,
Yes on marina wifi - bit slow but freeeee.
Berth direct with Marina now and rents corrected for this coming year, not reduced. They are now actually charging the 'thanks for staying' correct annual rate (this year) rather than the 'best possible price' 12 x monthly (last year), rather than the 'lucky to get a berth' 6 x monthly and 6 months of daily (year before plus agent fees). So even with euro crash for us its gone down significantly year on year.

Oh I've waited for this moment, both in UK & Mallorca, to feel your business is actually appreciated rather than crawling into countless marina offices on your knees begging. I'm sure berthing demand throughout the Island must have eased in the 10 m bracket. Dont know where they've gone though, east perhaps ??
Still lots of gaps here on P4 .....
Are your buyers from a non flagged domain or poor etiquette tut tut .....

PS pleasant 80 deg in shade at moment - crew on beach today getting burnt (again)

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

but because the costs are starting to outweigh the benefits.

.

My point was that the costs changed at the beginning of 2008 for UK owners with boats in the Med due to Sterling's crashed and actually haven't much changed since then. The benefits haven't changed either; the weather is still just as sunny and the sea is just as blue. The OP suggested there was an exodus of UK boaters from the Med taking place presently. I dont think so and I dont see why there should be either. Anyone who can't afford to keep their boat in the Med now due Sterling's crash couldn't afford to do it last year or the year before.
I dont even think that UK boating is particularly attractive costwise either. Sure you don't have the air travel cost but berthing costs in many S coast marinas are no cheaper than Majorca, for example, and the cost of UK diesel is more than Spain and about on a par with Italy and France. There will always be people who re-evaluate the benefits of boating in the Med and bring there boats back or sell up altogether and there will always be people who fancy doing the opposite

 

[Nick_H]

My point was that the costs changed at the beginning of 2008 for UK owners with boats in the Med due to Sterling's crashed and actually haven't much changed since then. The benefits haven't changed either; the weather is still just as sunny and the sea is just as blue. The OP suggested there was an exodus of UK boaters from the Med taking place presently. I dont think so and I dont see why there should be either. Anyone who can't afford to keep their boat in the Med now due Sterling's crash couldn't afford to do it last year or the year before.

I see what you're saying, but I think it takes longer to filter through, because people have so much money already invested in boats and berths. As you say, there's a constant cycle of people moving their boat back or giving up, and new people moving in to take their place, but if a few more leave each year due to the higher prices, and fewer new Brit boaters move in for the same reason, then the net result is a reduction in British owned boats in the Med over a period of time. I wouldn't know if that's happening or not, as I don't know the nationality of most of the boat owners in Antibes (although nearly all the boats are British flagged), but my gut feel is that it is happening, and I'd certainly say there are less Brit holidaymakers in Antibes now.

 

[Tranona]

My point was that the costs changed at the beginning of 2008 for UK owners with boats in the Med due to Sterling's crashed and actually haven't much changed since then. The benefits haven't changed either; the weather is still just as sunny and the sea is just as blue. The OP suggested there was an exodus of UK boaters from the Med taking place presently. I dont think so and I dont see why there should be either. Anyone who can't afford to keep their boat in the Med now due Sterling's crash couldn't afford to do it last year or the year before.
I dont even think that UK boating is particularly attractive costwise either. Sure you don't have the air travel cost but berthing costs in many S coast marinas are no cheaper than Majorca, for example, and the cost of UK diesel is more than Spain and about on a par with Italy and France. There will always be people who re-evaluate the benefits of boating in the Med and bring there boats back or sell up altogether and there will always be people who fancy doing the opposite

I don't think it is a question of suddenly not being able to afford it and instantly changing direction. For many people it has become less attractive but they are not panicking. On the other hand, perhaps there are less people prepared to buy boats because of the higher costs and uncertain fiture.

Net effect is what we are seeing - empty berths, falling new boat sales and movement within the area to reduce costs. All part of the way markets adjust to a changing environment.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I see what you're saying, but I think it takes longer to filter through, because people have so much money already invested in boats and berths. As you say, there's a constant cycle of people moving their boat back or giving up, and new people moving in to take their place, but if a few more leave each year due to the higher prices, and fewer new Brit boaters move in for the same reason, then the net result is a reduction in British owned boats in the Med over a period of time. I wouldn't know if that's happening or not, as I don't know the nationality of most of the boat owners in Antibes (although nearly all the boats are British flagged), but my gut feel is that it is happening, and I'd certainly say there are less Brit holidaymakers in Antibes now.

What I have seen is some Brit boaters moving away from the more pricey areas of the Med to other less pricey areas. A couple of Brit owners I spoke to in Palma last year were moving to S Carles to save money reasoning that they could still visit their favourite Balearic cruising grounds but they'd have undertake an open sea passage to get there first but the saving in berthing fees would make it worthwile. Also new marinas are opening up all the time in other areas like S Italy, Sicily, Turkey etc and I'm sure boaters are attracted to move from the Med hotspots to these newer marinas to save money and experience a new cruising area. I just don't see an exodus of Brit boats returning to the UK at the moment or indeed a reason why it should be happening right now

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I don't think it is a question of suddenly not being able to afford it and instantly changing direction. For many people it has become less attractive but they are not panicking. On the other hand, perhaps there are less people prepared to buy boats because of the higher costs and uncertain fiture.

Net effect is what we are seeing - empty berths, falling new boat sales and movement within the area to reduce costs. All part of the way markets adjust to a changing environment.

I wouldn't argue against the obvious fact that the boating industry as a whole is going through a bad time at present and there are probably less people coming into boating to replace the ones that are leaving resulting in empty berths and reduced business. But the OP's point was that there was exodus of Brit boaters from the Med which is not the same thing

 

[jfm]

I wouldn't argue against the obvious fact that the boating industry as a whole is going through a bad time at present and there are probably less people coming into boating to replace the ones that are leaving resulting in empty berths and reduced business. But the OP's point was that there was exodus of Brit boaters from the Med which is not the same thing

The empty berth thing confuses me. A few years ago there were wait lists for nice berths in UK. Now, even places like Lymington and the marina in Darthaven in front of the newish hotel/spa are saying they have vacancies. I can understand people doing less boating in a recession but where have all the actual boats gone?

Is it that a large number of UK boats have been bought by overseas Euro buyers? Essex Boatyards certianly does lots of exporting, not just to the Med but to scandinavia etc. And the marinas in the Med hotspots dont have vacancies.

So, is it the exact opposite of Oldgit's original post. Has there been an exodus of boats from the UK?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The empty berth thing confuses me. A few years ago there were wait lists for nice berths in UK. Now, even places like Lymington and the marina in Darthaven in front of the newish hotel/spa are saying they have vacancies. I can understand people doing less boating in a recession but where have all the actual boats gone?

Is it that a large number of UK boats have been bought by overseas Euro buyers? Essex Boatyards certianly does lots of exporting, not just to the Med but to scandinavia etc. And the marinas in the Med hotspots dont have vacancies.

So, is it the exact opposite of Oldgit's original post. Has there been an exodus of boats from the UK?

For sure there has been an increase in export sales of used boats from the UK but there were some figures in a recent MBY from a well known broker suggesting that the increase in these sales was fairly modest. Somebody flame me if I'm wrong but I think the % of total used boat sales accounted for by export sales for the broker in question had risen from 12% to 20% ie not exactly a massive increase
As for marinas like Lymington and Darthaven having spaces, I think that's just a sign of owners seeking better value in cheaper less posh marinas. It's impossible to say anything for sure without knowing the berth vacancy situation in every marina on the S Coast. It could be that it is cheaper marinas which now have the waiting lists? Of course, if every marina was reporting reduced occupancy, then that would be harder to explain

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

It could be that it is cheaper marinas which now have the waiting lists?

I think Eastbourne might be the cheapest south coast marina, and they've definitely got no waiting list.

Anyway, look, this is all very interesting .... but what we really want is to see your Istrian cruise pictures!

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[gjgm]

well 10-20pct would make quite a difference ,surely?
As regards UK (and probably Med) berths, I think the availability depends on what size you are after.I guess there hasnt been a big drop off in requirements for larger berths.Isnt it the more humble fare that has got clobbered?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

well 10-20pct would make quite a difference ,surely?
As regards UK (and probably Med) berths, I think the availability depends on what size you are after.I guess there hasnt been a big drop off in requirements for larger berths.Isnt it the more humble fare that has got clobbered?

I dont think so. Say a brokerage sold 100 boats last year. Thats only an extra 8 boats going abroad compared to the previous year (if my figures are correct) which doesn't seem an awful lot to me

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Anyway, look, this is all very interesting .... but what we really want is to see your Istrian cruise pictures!

Cheers
Jimmy

I'll try to get round to doing a post this week

 

[gjgm]

I dont think so. Say a brokerage sold 100 boats last year. Thats only an extra 8 boats going abroad compared to the previous year (if my figures are correct) which doesn't seem an awful lot to me

Ahh, sorry, misread your post.Still,although some boats seem late going back into the water this year, the marinas do seem more empty.. so where have all the boats gone!

 

[kcrane]

Ahh, sorry, misread your post.Still,although some boats seem late going back into the water this year, the marinas do seem more empty.. so where have all the boats gone!

The marinas may have had waiting lists a couple of years ago, but perhaps they all have had the same few people on the list. There can't have been that many boats without a home, or where would they have been? So if 10% extra used boats went to Euroland it might make a big difference.

This weekend was glorious in the Solent, see picture. While up the Tower we looked across at Haslar, and I reckon 30% of the berths were empty. Yarmouth wasn't full on Friday, and Gunwharf was 50% full on Saturday - despite weather good enough to be drinking beers laid on the sunbed.

Are there a lot of boats still to go back in the water?

Our neighbour at Swanwick went into Cowes, and the Yacht Haven staff said it was very quiet, they wondered where everyone was. We only saw a handful of motorboats all weekend.