The CS - Liquid Vortex love in thread

sigma38dave

sigma38dave

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Rather than condemn this man for sailing a boat in some heavy weather, does anybody want to join in for a well deserved 'well done for giving it a go given the forecast that man!' ??

The armchair critism on the other threads about sailors decisions are getting a little tired lately....especially as I know how good some of you really are that are dishing out the critism!

No names....yet!
 
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What is 'the Forecast' of which you speak?
I can normally find 3 or 4 different forecasts, unfortunately SWMBO picks the most pessimistic one and sometimes we miss a good sail.
 
xyachtdave said:
Rather than condemn this man for sailing a boat in some heavy weather, does anybody want to join in for a well deserved 'well done for giving it a go given the forecast that man!' ??

The armchair critism on the other threads about sailors decisions are getting a little tired lately....
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+1

(Based on the little we know.)
 
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xyachtdave said:
Rather than condemn this man for sailing a boat in some heavy weather, does anybody want to join in for a well deserved 'well done for giving it a go given the forecast that man!' ??

The armchair critism on the other threads about sailors decisions are getting a little tired lately....especially as I know how good some of you really are that are dishing out the critism!

No names....
Click to expand...

The MetOffice forecast issued by the Coastguard is a pet gripe of mine, especially the CYA nature and the excessive ambiguity of terms like 'later', so I have some sympathy for CS.

I've been doing a lot of my sailing in the North Channel and Irish Sea of late where there can be up to six forecasts that cover at least part of a typical weekend cruise or come very close to it, so if I ever get into trouble there's probably at least one that could be used against me. If I were to take the approach that I never go out with a six in the forecast that would be nearly equivalent to saying I never go out when there's a 'y' in the day. So I often give it a go with a lot more than a six in the forecast with the intention of getting there before the really bad stuff comes in (another reason why I hate the vagueness of 'later' as the period covers both early evening and the next morning).

However, a key factor in the CS case was that he gave it a go without a bail out plan as entry to his ports of refuge became pretty much untenable when the bad weather did hit, so I'm afraid I'm still with the condemners.
 
I raced motorcycles in my youth, anyone that got past was branded a 'nutter' with a 'death wish'....maybe they were just faster?

Same for sailing in strong winds maybe?
 
xyachtdave said:
I raced motorcycles in my youth, anyone that got past was branded a 'nutter' with a 'death wish'....maybe they were just faster?

Same for sailing in strong winds maybe?
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LOL, I'm the same on my bike. Anyone faster than me is a nutter. Anyone slower is a pussy.

I can be a bit more mature about sailing. If the Liquid Vortex's were out on purpose, great, good luck to them, it's their choice. If they were out by mistake... well we all make mistakes.

So, I'm not going to condemn them.
 
However, a key factor in the CS case was that he gave it a go without a bail out plan as entry to his ports of refuge became pretty much untenable when the bad weather did hit, so I'm afraid I'm still with the condemners.[/QUOTE]

+1 here too, for the same reasons, and I have cruised all three of our craft and raced others in F6 and above and in open water, ie Not just in the Solent or a large Estuary, such as the Fal.

Your first responsibilty as Skipper is the safety of your crew, and the boat. Not to get them into a situation like that, when it is avoidable by an early abort to shelter, as other Commercials some hours ahead of CS and the weather, doing the same LIBS run, appear to have done.
Things go wrong/break in heavy weather and completely change the 'game' on you, vide his jib halliard and wheel damage. Crew Movement is exhausting and often bl@@dy painful, in my experience.

Whatever the Jury's verdict, IMHO, that was one very bad judgement call by CS to carry on, there was shelter and even anchorages on that route after Royal Soveriegn (i've sailed it from Chi to Woolverstone, and used every bit we could get in a 20' with sails and 6hp o/b).

Hopefully he will learn from it, certainly everyone else has, I think.
BTW, I am of the 'live 'cold calculated risk' coward, not dead hero' school of thought, if I have a choice at all in my actions, and not afraid to say so.
 
A1Sailor said:
CS should be congratulated for ensuring, with the help of the rescue services, that nobody died. That was a magnificent achievement, of which they can be proud.
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+1

I understand the RNLI does not give out medals for braveory lightly, but I lived on Hoy a long time ago and it is over 40 years since the Longhope Lifeboat was lost.
 
xyachtdave said:
Rather than condemn this man for sailing a boat in some heavy weather, does anybody want to join in for a well deserved 'well done for giving it a go given the forecast that man!' ??

The armchair critism on the other threads about sailors decisions are getting a little tired lately....especially as I know how good some of you really are that are dishing out the critism!

No names....yet!
Click to expand...

I think he should have stood at the pull pit and shouted 'I'm the king of the world' as Kate looked on in adoring admiration.
 
xyachtdave said:
Rather than condemn this man for sailing a boat in some heavy weather, does anybody want to join in for a well deserved 'well done for giving it a go given the forecast that man!' ??

The armchair critism on the other threads about sailors decisions are getting a little tired lately....especially as I know how good some of you really are that are dishing out the critism!

No names....yet!
Click to expand...

It wasn't the sailing I'm criticising. This isn't about the sailing. The real reason the company is closed and it's gone to court? Social networking abuse and press niavity.

The skipper took the company to the edge, then the owner finished it off.

First the foolish skipper represented his employer badly in the press, which is what you potentially do when you tweet - when will people learn? It was madness to post a bravodo post before going out. Would the company have allowed a press relaese along those lines in advance? Well they did allow it, probably inadvertently. Without the twitter thing it would probably have just been another tow, reported on the bottom of page 9.

If once it was starting to escalate the owner had said something on the lines of "It looks like we have had a managements failure, safety is our prime concern and none of our boats will leave the dock until we have done a thourough review. If you have a course booked with us we will re book for another date, put you with another school, or give you a full refund" he might have saved his company.

What did he say - "we didn't do anything wrong". Game over.
 
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I think CS was a nob, if he wants to sail in such conditions he should go out alone or with others privately, not with paying customers for whom he has a duty of care.
 
Clarky said:
I think CS was a nob, if he wants to sail in such conditions he should go out alone or with others privately, not with paying customers for whom he has a duty of care.
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That is what I used to think, but I'm not so sure.
He tweeted to the world how bad the conditions were likely to be. He briefed the crew on departure. He would presumably tell them, also, that they were likely to be sailing into a Force 10 - they all went with him!:eek:
I guess having paid money, they were in no position to chicken out. He, with a deadline to meet and customers, might have chickened out - but didn't. From what I hear other skippers sought shelter - he didn't.
Who knows whether he planned to seek shelter, or continue no matter what. His tweet suggests he was looking forward to sailing in a Force 10. The jury might have an inkling of his genuine intentions.
In another thread, it is stated that he has spent the summer working as an instructor for sailing schools in the Solent. His CV must be interesting!
 
CS was a paid professional skipper, working for a company taking money off people for sail training. His primary responsibility, as is that of the compmany he was working for, is to make a full risk assessment of the conditions likely to be encountered when making the proposed passage and to build in sensible mitigating measures to minimise or eliminate the risks involved.

Given the information he should have had available to him (not only the MCA forecast but other resources such as grib files) and the level of competance and tranining of his paying crew, there can be little excuse for him not remaining on the berth in the Solent. This responsibility also rests with the company that employed him.

Now, having said that, if he'd been skippering his own boat with a crew of mates, then I'd say good luck to him. He coped reasonably well with a difficult situation and didn't loose anyone.
 
A1Sailor said:
I guess having paid money, they were in no position to chicken out.
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Why not? It would have been a doddle to B&B for the night and meet up at the next stop - or if cash was tight just go home.

duncan99210 said:
the level of competance and tranining of his paying crew
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I don't think you can fault their training: All had qualifications equal or beyond their position on the boat.

Competence? We just don't know what competence they had. Sounds to me like two of the crew were quite good and three were not but we haven't been told that explicitly.
 
duncan99210 said:
CS was a paid professional skipper, working for a company taking money off people for sail training. His primary responsibility, as is that of the compmany he was working for, is to make a full risk assessment of the conditions likely to be encountered when making the proposed passage and to build in sensible mitigating measures to minimise or eliminate the risks involved.

Given the information he should have had available to him (not only the MCA forecast but other resources such as grib files) and the level of competance and tranining of his paying crew, there can be little excuse for him not remaining on the berth in the Solent. This responsibility also rests with the company that employed him.

Now, having said that, if he'd been skippering his own boat with a crew of mates, then I'd say good luck to him. He coped reasonably well with a difficult situation and didn't loose anyone.
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+1, tho I might have gone very quickly to Gosport or Cowes for the night, just to start the team bonding. Even with experienced mates, sea sickness is a wild card game changer in terms of a boats safety.
We are none of us without sin in regard to underallowing for sea sickness, I went to Cherbourg in March with two experienced pals, pm tide, overnight from Bembridge;

One went down with seasickness about 6nm off St Cath's Light, the other about 20nm S of there. i confess to a certain queasyness too, but was 95% OK.
However, we carried on, having issued Scopaderm patches and crystallised ginger all round, as weather was do-able, and improving, and sure enough, by the time we were through the French side traffic, the second down had recovered.
The first had, in fact, picked up a tummy bug and was off colour for the whole jaunt, including all the French meals:).

That's what i cannot understand, if you are determined to sail into those conditions, why no issue of tablets or patches/instructions to take your preferred remedy in readiness now and maintain the dosage, to your crew.

A planned? continous passage into night, and rough seas, even a heavy swell, esp. if quartering + tiredness/sleep pattern disruption, can almost be guaranteed to take down at least one person in a crew, however experienced.
 
toad_oftoadhall said:
Why not? It would have been a doddle to B&B for the night and meet up at the next stop - or if cash was tight just go home.
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Having paid for the trip Toad, and with no refund, they were perhaps disinclined to go home. Meet up at the next stop? As a sailor, I presume you know that the next stop isn't decided until you get there...
Are you a sailor?

EDIT: You are a sailor!
"I love sailing in all its forms, always have. Fast Dinghies, Windsurfing, Cruising".
 
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