The case for Licensing?

coliholic

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Had a bit of a worrying experience over the weekend and it's sort of made me think that maybe there really is a need for compulsory training and licensing before going to sea. Here';s the story.

We boat on the River Ouse in Cambridgeshire, some 140 miles of inland rivers. At Denver Sluice, near Downham Market there's the final lock on the river and from there you can get out on to the tidal Ouse and 19 miles later you're at Kings Lynn and then onwards to the Wash. Now most boaters are either content to just use the non-tidal river and just go as far as Denver and turn round again, but a few are brave enough and well equipped to go out to sea. The big problem with the lock at Denver is that once you lock out at HW, you're out for a full tide since the river dries out. So that sets the scene.

On Saturday we were at Denver and met with a nice couple and their 18 month old toddler on their brand new Sealine 23 I think. Chatting to them it appears that they bought the boat at Easter from the Hamble, had one good blast around the Solent with the guy who sold it to them (apparantly it does 35 knots) and then had it trucked to the Ouse and have been happily boating at 5 knots since. Their plan for Sunday however was to go out into the Wash for a play around. He asked me what I knew about the Wash. Seems that he has no charts, didn't know how far from the lock to the Wash, didn't know tide times, had no weather forecast and was generally unconcerned that he couldn't get back in till the next day ('cos the lock closes at 7pm so there's only one lock per day). His plan, if you can call it that, was to go out on the 09:30 lock on Sunday and then just drop his anchor on a sand bank and dry out when the tide dropped, stay out overnight and come back on Monday.

Now this all sounded a bit unprepared and unplanned to me but you can't really interfere can you? Well maybe you can a bit....I pointed out a couple of obvious issues, not least of course his lack of charts, but he said he'd been unable to get any and anyway one of his mate's had done it a few weeks ago and hadn't had any problems so what was I worried about? So that put me in my place.

But it's made me think that maybe licensing has a lot going for it. Or am I being a bit of an old fuddy duddy?
 

Gunfleet

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I met someone in France who'd motored into Dieppe using Autoroute Express. He didn't keep any paper charts on his boats and didn't have an electronic one for that part of the French coast.
 

hlb

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Must have met the same guy in Delette. Knackered Sea Line about 28/30 Ft. No charts, didnt like them. Autoroute and nothing else, it seemed. He did have a plan though. Wife got sick in rough seas so plan was. The rougher it got. The faster he went!!

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lanason

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I was chatting to a guy yesterday who was down in Portugal a few years ago talking to an Englishman, and they were discussing the "trip down". The other guy said that he navigated down by using "Michelin" maps as they "show the contours around the coast". He said he used the map and his depth finder to navigate along the contours...... brave, or stupid ??? I know which .....

Adrian

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Gunfleet

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Sounds like him. So how did I meet him? He rammed my boat. Not that I'm in favour of compulsory qualifications because the French and Dutch have those and don't seem any better prepared than most British sailors
 

hlb

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Oh Heck!! I gave him driving leasons on my boat, cos he was having trouble in the marinas. Must have made him worse!!

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Haydn
 

mtb

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Do you think it actually a health and safety issue, cos he is putting lives at risk.
The Wash is my playground cos the tug has no sleeping space so the most I stay out is a day and night .
There are pretty fast currents out there with very shallow water so to think people who have no experience are over confident just wander .

While watching Endeavor come in the other week , we anchored well clear of the channel for safety reasons.
Even my girlfriend could not believe the idiots all rushing up along side the ship, risking collisions . No wonder the port had both pilot boats out and the Bostonian but even with three trying to keep the pack at bay !!!!!!!!
Most of those craft I've not seen out on the wash before .

So reluctantly I go for the license even though I'd have to cough up dosh to do it.

Cheers
Mick
ps
Josh flew the Prankster , a perfect take off .All went well until it got so far away he couldn't see what was happening !!. He worked out its best not to listen to dad as I dont have a clue how to fly a plane.
It took over an hour and a half to find it in the cornfield. no damage at all but now he wants to join the club .

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airbubble

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100% right you are ! Lots of they about here in NL that stop at the petrol station with their car on the way to IJmuiden or Scheveningen to buy a 'map' and go out anyway. Tides ?
Weatherforecast ? Our licenses are theoretical only mind (that's why i did a yachtmasters in your country). It is absolutely redicoulous with most of them out here. VHF, radarreflector, lifevests ? ........ You don't need them .....till the day you do.
Unfortunately for me (marine surveyor working for a UK co) the underwriters don't give a s..
not even about almost criminal negligance old rigging of 15 years, although that seems to be changing.
Yes, definitely time for a better form of licencing, even if it 'll cost all yotties (incl me) money.
Happy sailing !
 

stamfordian

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This is one of the most stupid thinggs i,ve heard,especially in the Wash.He could pick the wrong sand bank and be stuck for more than one night,especially if the wind etc changed,if this is the start of river Ouse boaters thinking they can take thier river prepared boats out to sea Bob at wells Lifeboat station is going to be a busy chap...perhaps a notice on the lock would be a start or a warning on the river liecence???.
Or you could make it a condition that to use the lock boats must be open for inspection,before putting to sea,as is the case in Wells Harbour,short of compulsery but would make people think.

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BarryH

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Sorry to say that compulsory traing should now be a condition of every person who uses any boat. We've just come back from a brilliant two weeks in poole on the boat. On a couple of occasions we saw things that horrified us. One was a yacht coming thru the entrance with kids dotted all over it. Not one of them wearing a life jacket, nor was the skipper! Come to think of it I've never seen any of the raggies wear one. The other occasion we "found " a Fletcher sportsboat drifting in Studland Bay. Not an anchor rope in site, for that matter not a rope in sight. I could have kept it, but being the nice person I am, we beeched it and save someone £10k worth of sportsboat.

I'm no expert boatman, but did take the time to take a few RYA courses. It doesn't cost that much and is quiet good fun. Its made my years of boating far more enjoyable, because I have some idea of what I'm doing and can understand the dangers. So in short some sort of training and liability insurance should be compulsory before anyone takes to the water. Its a sad state of affairs, but its the age old problem of the minority giving the majority a bad name. Just look at the PWC community

OK, to hell with it. Unbolt it and we'll use it as an anchor!
 

Andrew_Fanner

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Problem then becomes that the requirements for training etc, and the conditions, become subject to some Brussels based EU jobsworth who has never even seen the sea, but uses rules for something else and "adapts" them.

25 forms to complete and send before you get permission to take your boat off its mooring. And the appropriate fees...




...and probably light dues to pay and no red diesel either.

Two beers please, my friend is paying.
 

rmashton

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I don't think you're being a fuddy duddy. I am currently trying to get my wife and myself on an RYA course and we haven't purchased a boat yet. If we hire again this season we will enjoy the boat all the more for knowing a bit more about what we're doing. (We do have 5 weeks on rivers now - hiring 'sporty' type cruisers.)

I used to refuse to drive off if people in the back of my car hadn't done up their seatbelt. Now it's law, I still make sure they have done the belt up, because even though it's their responsibility (for points on the license), I want to make sure they don't fly through me if we have an accident.

You can worry too much about others in some situations and there will always be those who will ignore you anyway.

Nowadays, if you point out something to someone they turn round and punch you in the face for your trouble.

The only way to ensure everyone is trained is to make it compulsory and license it - However, this doesn't mean everyone is SAFE.

I don't know what the answer is for others, but for me, training generally and asking those with local knowledge (like yourselves) would do it for me, and avoid those who seem to have no care for themselves of others, either at sea or on land.
 

Bergman

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Clearly your friend is in need of education, and may well get it the hard way.

I don't really think licensing is the answer. Look at cars. Everyone takes a test and has a license, is subject to camera surveillance and police prosecution and still manage to kill each other on a regular basis.

Despite recent events the sea is still safer than the roads, being killed in a road accident isn't news, being killed at sea is.

There are many examples of the kind you describe, most of these people frighten themselves to the extent of either learning to do it right or giving up all together.

The sea does that without regulation or license.

Surprisingly, if you look at the facts it is quite rare for this type of person to actually die, most fatalities involve experienced people.

I don't know what the solution is, nor I suspect does anyone else. But that does not mean that licensing is a solution. One thing I guarantee is that licensing is introduced and makes things demonstrably worse it will not be recinded.
 

dangcharios

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Hi Andrew
It need not be complicated, Spanish boat owners have to have a licence
Its the equivilent of the RYA Day Skipper (That qualifys you for an ICC for use
abroad) I dont like restrictions but the problem is getting worse.

Alan
 
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You're probably right, they don't die. They just end up being rescued by the RNLI...
 

dickh

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Wells Harbour?? - boats must be inspected? who does it and inspection for what? what about visiting boats? are they inspected - please explain.

dickh
I'd rather be sailing...
 

sailbadthesinner

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Re: Aargh NO

How can you police that
Thousands of people drive cars with nmo insurance and there are the rafts of traffic police out there

You are not going to stop one guy buying a PWC and trailing it a day later and buzzing around.
I saw a post earlier of someone contactiong harbour as Speed boat and PWC buzzed 20 rags and stinks at anchor, noone in authority interested.
MY only worry is ofcourse that the idiots can harm other people and not just kill themselves, but i cannot see a solution to that.

My encounters with PWC has found they do not to take the suggestion that they should go outside the bay and not surf up and down the beach in sight of mates/ girls is heeded only for a short while before they are back.

Agree to regulation it will just be a tax in another form with all the usual people paying and all the usual people avoiding. all imho ofcourse



...It was like that when i found it!
 

longjohnsilver

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NO! NO! NO!

Oh please let's not volunteer for yet more regulations and further taxation via the back door.

Of course there are plenty of idiots out there, but what level will you set your license at, who will police it and how much will it all cost?

How will you ever prevent an idiot buying a second hand boat and setting off to sea totally unprepared. Will it be down to the local HM to inspect every boat before they launch? Imagine the queues building up! Everyone will probably have to book a launching time weeks in advance.

As for larger boats what do you do with their owners? No the idea is totally unworkable, just look at all the idiots on our roads who have passed a test, thhe fact they have a piece of official paper doesn't seem to make them any less stupid and certainly they are far more likely to kill themselves and others than anyone on a boat.

There's certainly nothing wrong with trying to persuade and educate people, surely this is the best route to take.

The whole argument seems like a case of turkeys voting in favour of Christmas.
 

mtb

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Re: [url]www.wellsharbour.co.uk[/url]

In the free brochure under general directions
10, vessels proceeding to sea should be properly and safely fitted out and be open to the harbour master's inspection.

That's what it says, I've talked to him and I don't think he's qualified as such
( may be wrong !!) but has general knowledge and was soon to take more courses re off shore .
I found him to be a nice helpful sort of bloke.
Cheers
Mick

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I want a big steel ex trawler / tug v / cheap or swap for tug
 
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