Thames Barge - sail names

[alant]

These days, when there is more than one headsail, convention calls the headsail immediately forward of the mast a staysail (self-tacking or otherwise), then a jib flown forward of that or on a bowsprit, then a yankee flown above that.

On a Thames Barge, the sail immediately forward of the mast is called a jib (self tacking on a horse), the one flown forward of that or from a bowsprit the staysail & the one flown above that a flying jib.

Confusing?

Why the difference?

 

[Peterduck]

Evidently, Thames bargees used words differently to everyone else, so this is just another example of that. They wouldn't tack the barge, they would 'wind' it [as you would an alarm clock]. Instead of having a district-based dialect, there is a trade-based one.
Peter.

 

[nmiller]

Apparently barging language is still evolving. I have a copy of F S Cooper's Handbook of Sailing Barges, pub 1955, and both G G Carr (1031) and E J March (1948), all of which seem to be authoritative. According to these books the sail on the forestay is called foresail (for'sl), the ones forward of that are jib and jib topsail on a coaster, or according to Cooper the Staysail (set on the topmast stay). Interesting how that has changed in 40 to 60 years.

 

[Woodlouse]

I would call the sail on a normal gaffer that is above the Jib the Jib Topsail. It would only be a yankee if it went from the end of the bowsprit to the masthead, and you flew it instead of the normal jib.

 

[alant]

"It would only be a yankee if it went from the end of the bowsprit to the masthead, and you flew it instead of the normal jib."

If you had a bowsprit, yes.

But most yachts do not & even when flown from the bow above any other foresail, it would commonly be called a yankee - also given to a foresail with a high cut foot (not storm jib).

 

[cliffordpope]

Remembering that "staysail" is short for "fore stay sail" shows its origin - it is set on the forestay, as opposed to further aft or out on the bowsprit. Don't sailing barges have lowering masts with massive tackles permanently incorporated into the foot of the stay that lowers the mast, to allow them to shoot bridges? So which stay do they define as the forestay?

 

[Woodlouse]

Your original post says there is a bowsprit in this equation. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Here's an example of a jib topsail. A yankee is a very different beast.

 

[alant]

"A yankee is a very different beast."

Agreed.

IMHO, if the tack of your jib topsail was much closer to the bowsprit, with its clew almost adjacent to the jib clew, I would call it then a yankee. The luff might also be longer.

 

[alant]

Doing a google search, I came upon all sorts of headsails purporting to be yankee's.

Also found this http://www.sailingsoftware.co.uk/Almanac/almanac_glossary.htm#Y

 

[Woodlouse]

If the luff of the sail went from the end of the bowsprit, right up to the masthead, then it would be a yankee. I don't have a picture of a good example though.

 

[Sniper]

On a barge, the sail permanently hanked on to the forestay (which goes from the stem to head of the main mast) is the foresail - always has been and (presumably) always will be. On a barge without a bowsprit, the sail set on the topmast stay is the staysail.