TDS SIS 440 vs. Sika 290 DC for deck recaulking

[MapisM]

Some folks on the web swear by the first, but all the yards I got in touch with seem to use only the latter.
Does anyone have first hand experiences, or reliable indications, about which product works better (i.e. lasts longer)?
Thanks in advance!

 

[jfm]

You are comparing the 2 best products in the business, so either will be very good. It is all the others (Saba, West Marine, Boatlife, etc) that you might prefer to avoid imho. Though, the only one I would shout from the rooftops "Do not use this!" is Saba, which imho is junk and completely unsuited to use on decks.

FWIW, as a very general comment Americans will generally tend to vote for 440 because it is distributed widely there and 290DCi isn't, and vice versa in Europe. That said, Royal Huisman use 440

Technically, I believe 440 and 290DCi must be similar. Both cure by reaction with moisture in the atmosphere. 290DCi has higher tensile strength but I do not see that is significant in this application. 440 needs no primer whereas 290DCi does

I cannot comment on longevity from 1st hand exp. I have had both on my boats, but not kept them long enough to know about very long life. I am very happy with both, and I would not want any brand other than one of these 2.

Probably best to go with the yard's preference for Sika, rather than face a battle with the yard guys?

Finally, if you are on-trend and want white, I think it has to be 440 because AFAIK 290DC is black only

 

[MapisM]

if you are on-trend and want white, I think it has to be 440 because AFAIK 290DC is black only

LOL, I'm afraid it would take much more than white caulking to make my old tub worth the "on-trend" definition...

Many thanks for all the indications, interesting stuff.
I'm really tempted to give the 440 a try. Even if the yard where I will eventually do the job has used only the Sika for decades, they wouldn't fight at all if I'd ask them to use the 440 instead. Also because, if nothing else, they would save a bit of time avoiding one step (primer)...
Are you aware of any other relevant differences in the application, between the two?

PS: IIRC, you also supported the use of breaking tapes, in another discussion on caulking.
That's also something not popular at all around here. None of the yards I spoke with have ever used them, in fact.
And among them there are also yards who still build wooden boats, which one should think are more subject to planks movements...
FWIW, the recaulking on my decks was made exactly 10 yrs ago, with Sika and no bonding tapes.
It lasted nicely overall, but a replacement is now in order...

PPS: nice, the new avatar! Was the pic taken with the r/c chopper?

 

[jfm]

LOL, I'm afraid it would take much more than white caulking to make my old tub worth the "on-trend" definition...

Many thanks for all the indications, interesting stuff.
I'm really tempted to give the 440 a try. Even if the yard where I will eventually do the job has used only the Sika for decades, they wouldn't fight at all if I'd ask them to use the 440 instead.
Also because, if nothing else, they would save a bit of time avoiding one step (primer)...
Are you aware of any other relevant differences in the application, between the two?

No differences I can think of, though the absence of primer is a big deal. 440 therefore eliminates the risk of primer being badly applied, missed a bit, variable time between applying primer and caulk, and so on

In performance of the finished product, both 440 and 290 are the best there is and I doubt you will find any difference. Both are used by the world's best yacht builders.

440 is, if anything, a bit cheaper than 290 even before you consider the cost of the primer

 

[vas]

440 is, if anything, a bit cheaper than 290 even before you consider the cost of the primer

best and cheaper! that's an oxymoron!

MM, when JFM suggested this TDS stuff a while back, I had some problems finding a source at decent prices in the EU. If you do find someone willing to post at reasonable prices, do let us know. Would need a few large sausages in gray (going for the semi-trendy look, not the M2 full monty)

cheers

V.

 

[MapisM]

Actually, I'm not yet positive about whether I'll do the job this winter or if I'll stretch the existing decks for another season.
Depending on that, I might be shopping around either in a few weeks or in 12/13 months...
Either ways, rest assured that I'll keep you posted.
Thanks in advance for doing the same, in case of further findings also from your part!

 

[Seastoke]

it all sounds good how do you get the caulk out from between your decckin

 

[vas]

it all sounds good how do you get the caulk out from between your decckin

fein multitool, or for cheapskates like myself, Bosch, einhel and a few others have similar tools for around 100quid iirc. You just need the right "tooltip" on it to clear/cut new grooves. Fairly straightforward (if a bit noisy)

V.

 

[MapisM]

290DCi has higher tensile strength but I do not see that is significant in this application.

I just came across the product data sheets of the two.
According to them, the tensile strength of the 440 is 300 psi, vs. 1.3 N/mm2 of the 290.
Online conversion websites tell me that 1.3 N/mm2 equals to 189 psi.

Now, while I agree that this is not critical for the application which we are discussing, I would think that it's not so irrelevant either.
Particularly in wooden boats, whose structure might flex a bit more than a moulded GRP deck.

I was wondering if you just mixed the two by heart in your statement above, or you found some different specs somewhere.
I also thought of a conversion mistake, but I got the same result from two different online converters...
Besides, the above difference is somewhat consistent with the declared elongation (350% for the 440 and ">250%" for the 290).
Actually, ">250%" isn't very scientific, and could also mean 400% in theory, but it makes me think it's well below 350% anyway... .
For the records, Sika also declares a tear strength of 10 N/mm2, not disclosed for the 440.

 

[BartW]

how do you get the caulk out from between your decckin

not only get the caulk out, but also make the grooves deeper again,

the carpenters on my boat have been using a circular saw which I didn't like, (the finish of their work is not perfect)
I would have used a router and a ruler,
and a " fein " for the ends, or in the corners

a "fein" tool is part of my basic toolset in the boat, and is used very often ;-)

 

[djs]

best and cheaper! that's an oxymoron!

I had some problems finding a source at decent prices in the EU. If you do find someone willing to post at reasonable prices, do let us know. Would need a few large sausages in gray (going for the semi-trendy look, not the M2 full monty)

cheers

V.

I too struggled to find suppliers. Ended up corresponding with the european distributer in Denmark. They are looking for a UK distributer. I dont have a carriage quote as yet as i haven't confirmed how much i will need. PM sent with prices quoted.

Dave

 

[T00l00py]

Good day. Just joined. Here is some interesting things to keep in mind when choosing between TDS and Sika.
The Sika that we all liked was 290 DC. Great stuff but you can not buy that in Europe. You can Buy Sika 290 i DC.
This is not the same it is softer more runny harder to use and takes longer to go of. Sika also has just withdrawn one of their other i Cure marine products Sika 295 i UV. Is their a problem with the i Cure formula??
TDS on the other hand has broaden their world wide distribute list. You can not find one forum or skipper or boatyard that has ever had problems with 440. They have not changed their formula in resent years.
They are not have the same make up either. They are two very different caulking. Example TDS have no fluids in
As far as MS polymers go (Saba) please please please do some investigation you will be shocked with what you find.

Hope this helps

 

[jfm]

Good day. Just joined. Here is some interesting things to keep in mind when choosing between TDS and Sika.
The Sika that we all liked was 290 DC. Great stuff but you can not buy that in Europe. You can Buy Sika 290 i DC.
This is not the same it is softer more runny harder to use and takes longer to go of. Sika also has just withdrawn one of their other i Cure marine products Sika 295 i UV. Is their a problem with the i Cure formula??
TDS on the other hand has broaden their world wide distribute list. You can not find one forum or skipper or boatyard that has ever had problems with 440. They have not changed their formula in resent years.
They are not have the same make up either. They are two very different caulking. Example TDS have no fluids in
As far as MS polymers go (Saba) please please please do some investigation you will be shocked with what you find.

Hope this helps

Thanks, and welcome.

I'd be interested to hear a bit more detail on chemical/performance differences between TDS440 and Sika, if you have more info

I totally agree with you regarding Saba. I had this on my last boat and it was just awful imho. It went properly sticky, for days/weeks, after a normal 2-part clean. I would say to MapisM: don't even waste 1 minute of your time researching Saba - just avoid it imho. I specced TDS440 on my current boat, and I'm very pleased with it so far (though it is only one season old)

 

[MapisM]

The Sika that we all liked was 290 DC. Great stuff but you can not buy that in Europe. You can Buy Sika 290 i DC.

Thanks for the pointer.
Interestingly, their UK website indeed shows only the 290i DC, but for Italy (where my yard would source the stuff) the 290 DC is mentioned instead.
I'll try to reach Sika IT and check that out, but in the meantime thanks in advance for any further details you might be aware of.

Oh, and welcome to the asylum!

 

[kellys]

I have purchased it at www.bluemarinestore.com . They are located in the Balerics

 

[HelgeA]

Good evening

Sorry to bring up this old thread, but I am currently thinking which caulk to use for repair. My SQ58(2012) came from factory without teak at side deck. This was fitted additional through EBY, nice work done, all was fine. Already a while ago(2-3y) the caulk at the additional installed teak started to smear. Cleaning does not help, and I understand there is no way to stabilize it. No problems at all with the factory installed one. The smearing caulk is a bit glossy compared to the one originally used by Fairline.

Sika is more common in Croatia, so I wonder if there is some long term experience meanwhile for the one or another?

Thanks and rgds
Helge

 

[jfm]

Good evening

Sorry to bring up this old thread, but I am currently thinking which caulk to use for repair. My SQ58(2012) came from factory without teak at side deck. This was fitted additional through EBY, nice work done, all was fine. Already a while ago(2-3y) the caulk at the additional installed teak started to smear. Cleaning does not help, and I understand there is no way to stabilize it. No problems at all with the factory installed one. The smearing caulk is a bit glossy compared to the one originally used by Fairline.

Sika is more common in Croatia, so I wonder if there is some long term experience meanwhile for the one or another?

Thanks and rgds
Helge

The smearing one might well be Saba. As said above, never use Saba! A LOT of Saba decks have created warranty claims and some have been re-caulked, around the world.

Either Sika 290 or TDS 440 would be perfect.

But changing your caulk is a huge job. So, I would try painting your decks in Semco - 2 or 3 coats of clear or natural colour. This might seal the caulk for a while

Saba in general is a good product. Their 760xl for bonding windows is good. It's just their deck caulk that I would avoid.

 

[HelgeA]

Thanks for response, I think I will go for a new caulk in spring. It is not that big surface, just forward from the fuel inlets (small step) to the bow. I got a first price of 280€/m2 from a local craftsman with very well reputation. I do not like any paint or oil on my teak, so painting is not an option.
Best rgds
Helge

 

[jfm]

. I do not like any paint or oil on my teak, so painting is not an option.
Best rgds
Helge

Me too, very much. But you'd be amazed how semco clear will make you think your teak is bare teak. I hate the appearance of teak oil etc, but was amazed by semco clear.