Talk about Bravaria......

[Wansworth]

Saw a Westerly centaur for sale in Spain so had a look at the owners web site.Tales of keels needing backing up or falling off :stress cracks rudders this or that,now in two minds about the idea .Certainly an eye opener to problems of buying old boats!

 

[Searush]

So the guy has sorted all the problems on a 30 year old boat for you. How kind.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

Methinks mogy meant owners' website, not owner's website.

 

[Kilter]

Would you have to be a tit to buy a Bravaria?

 

[Dyflin]

Would you have to be a tit to buy a Bravaria?

Never a truer word spoken

 

[Tranona]

Saw a Westerly centaur for sale in Spain so had a look at the owners web site.Tales of keels needing backing up or falling off :stress cracks rudders this or that,now in two minds about the idea .Certainly an eye opener to problems of buying old boats!

Yes! Good thing they don't build boats like they used to! However, you have identified many of the failings - there are a few more as well. Good news is that most of them are relatively easy to fix and most will have been done already.

 

[jason -and the arguenauts]

You're quite right. I always reckon that boats are like cars - the older coachbuilt cars were not made to the same tight quality standards as modern motors and this is reflected in their real life performance. Same for boats though the difference isnt quite as great because mass produced boatbuilding techniques havent progressed to anything like the same extent as for car because the volume isnt there.

Nevertheless I would have little doubt that the mass produced Bav would be made to a tighter and higher quality level that the hand made low tech Westerly - and I'm not a Bav owner.

 

[Searush]

You're quite right. I always reckon that boats are like cars - the older coachbuilt cars were not made to the same tight quality standards as modern motors and this is reflected in their real life performance. Same for boats though the difference isnt quite as great because mass produced boatbuilding techniques havent progressed to anything like the same extent as for car because the volume isnt there.

Nevertheless I would have little doubt that the mass produced Bav would be made to a tighter and higher quality level that the hand made low tech Westerly - and I'm not a Bav owner.

Rolyabout laughingthingyx10

Bless you for your silly dreams. Modern production lines cut a million corners to save a few cents. Classic cars, old boats, old bikes, old furniture, old houses - the list is probably endless - they were built to last, built by craftsmen & built with love & care. The designs & materials may not be so high tech, but the build quality & construction standards are 10x better (at least!) I'd put my 35 year old Westerly against any 35 year old BavJenWhatsit - if any ever get to that age.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

I tend to disagree with you Searush on that point.

Modern production lines do cut corners in costs, but do so while also meeting substantially higher quality standards. They cut costs through things like automated drilling of holes.... so that they are in exactly the right place... no filling to fit items... they do so through precise measurement of resins, resulting in just the right amount of design strength without an unneccessary weight penalty... and so much more

Classic cars were never built to last unless they were built at ridiculously high prices to start with.... the equivalent car ranges to the 'middle of the road' Westerly range are all but vanished, and are only kept alive by a few dedicated enthusiasts... the remainder have rusted and rotted away, or have been crashed due to inferior, and in some cases downright dangerous, handling...

I just don't accept that they were built to last.... British examples were designed by committee, built by a begruding workforce, and directed by 'leaders' who were completely incapable of even recognising, let alone adopting the revolutions taking place in manufacturing in places like the far east.

Give me a 35 year old Ford from today's models, or a Ford from 35 years ago, and I would place a very very large bet on which one would be in better nick....

I think the same will apply to modern production boats, but as of yet, it will only be denied by older boat owners..... the same as owners of Norton's and BSA's sneered at Japanese bike owners only just a few years ago....

 

[jason -and the arguenauts]

Classic cars, old boats, old bikes, old furniture, old houses - the list is probably endless - they were built to last, built by craftsmen & built with love & care. The designs & materials may not be so high tech, but the build quality & construction standards are 10x better (at least!) I'd put my 35 year old Westerly against any 35 year old BavJenWhatsit - if any ever get to that age.

You're living in a dream, world Searush. Can you really convince yourself that the cars built in the 60s (say) are anything but rubbish by todays standards. I can remember when 30k miles was a good mileage and the engine about ready for a decoke. And at 100k , it was a new engine if the floor pan hadnt rotted out by then.

Same with boats. Far more keels fell of Westerlies than have even been reported on Bavs - I know of 4 Westerly keels in my immediate area alone. And the head linings? And the osmosis?

But the bit I liked most was the " built by craftsmen & built with love & care". You cant have worked in manufacturing as I did all my life. It was, and still is, a game in which the workforce try to get away with doing as little as they can and you spend your time trying to get them to do more. Love and care dont come into it at any stage.

 

[Woodlouse]

Modern production boats are made in such a way that the builders know exactly how much of everything, glass, resin, sikaflex etc is required to build with. All very well, you think, but what they then do is they allot exactly that quantity of materials and no more to the boat. So, say for example part of the teak takes a little more sika to bed than normal, another part of the boat won't be bedded down properly because your supposed to have all you need. The same goes for glass and resin.

If anyone thinks that the build quality of a Bavaria is equal or better to that of a Westerly then you are seriously delusional. If you were to take core samples of the hulls you'd soon see why, the thickness of the laminate on a Bavaria is frightening, down to less than half a centemetre less than two feet outboard of the keel root is within spec for them.

Basically, if I hit the bottom in a Westerly I wouldn't be too concerned. If I touched bottom in a Bavaria I would be heading for the nearest travel hoist pronto to make sure the keel was still attached.

 

[Tranona]

Rolyabout laughingthingyx10

Bless you for your silly dreams. Modern production lines cut a million corners to save a few cents. Classic cars, old boats, old bikes, old furniture, old houses - the list is probably endless - they were built to last, built by craftsmen & built with love & care. The designs & materials may not be so high tech, but the build quality & construction standards are 10x better (at least!) I'd put my 35 year old Westerly against any 35 year old BavJenWhatsit - if any ever get to that age.

Large rose tinted spectacles here methinks! Old boats (particularly first generation GRP) are built the way they are because, just like cars of the same era the designers and builders did not know any better. The "craftsmen" spent (wasted?) most of their time doing unnecessary things or compensating for bad design and poor materials. I know I worked with them and used their products. And ran a boatyard building boats the "old way" until it got wiped out by competitors (who are still in business) who applied good engineering and production techniques to the job.

An example, putting deck fittings on and windows in could take 100hours, measuring where they should be drilling the holes, apprentice inside to hold the nuts - discovering there is a bulkhead in the wrong place or there is no re-inforcing pad - and so on. The deck on my Bavaria was drilled and all holes cut out in exactly the right place in 90 minutes and I would fire the works manager if it took more than 10 man hours to do the fittings - just screwed into threaded plates. Never leaked a drop.

That is why modern boats (whatever you think of the style) are infinitely better designed, stronger and probably half the price in real terms than 30 years ago. You can say the same about cars as well.

If you really want to see what can be done with good engineering have a look at my 2003 Morgan and compare it with one built 10 or 15 years earlier. Same look, different animal in engineering and quality terms - but twice the price of a Mazda MX5.

 

[jason -and the arguenauts]

If you really want to see what can be done with good engineering have a look at my 2003 Morgan and compare it with one built 10 or 15 years earlier. Same look, different animal in engineering and quality terms - but twice the price of a Mazda MX5.

I was with you until you got to this bit. Unless you are the lucky owner of an Aero of course. The trads may have been titivated but no way are they different animals from the originals.

 

[Tranona]

Then you have not looked closely enough. Agree the Aero is in a different league, but I was referring to how you can put something together properly even if it looks old! I did the comparison before I decided to buy a new one.

 

[Tranona]

[

If anyone thinks that the build quality of a Bavaria is equal or better to that of a Westerly then you are seriously delusional. If you were to take core samples of the hulls you'd soon see why, the thickness of the laminate on a Bavaria is frightening, down to less than half a centemetre less than two feet outboard of the keel root is within spec for them.

If you are defining "high build quality" (what a horrible phrase that has no meaning!) as throwing in buckets of resin at roughly cut up pieces of mat in variable temperatures in the hope that it will be thick enough not to fall apart even if it does not cure properly, you are right.

If you are defining it as the proper use of a material's properties and made in a way that results in consistency and meeting design specification then the Bavaria wins hands down - as do the products of the other major production builders.

There is nothing wrong with liking old Westerlys. They are cheap and give lots of people access to safe cruising. However, you need to be DIY person to keep up with the work - some caused by old age but most by bad design and construction. Just don't claim that they are "higher quality" than modern boats.

I am tempted at times to replace my 9 year old Bavaria with a "proper" boat, but the feeling goes away by about the third boat I look at. Osmosis (or worse badly repaired osmosis) stress cracks around fittings, water getting in and corroding chain plates, leaking windows, teak decks about to peel off, toe rails lifting because the craftsman made scarph joint is too short and in the wrong place - and that is before you get inside to see the droopy headlining, water damage on the bulkheads from leaks, rubbish electrics and so on. In my experience a 25-30 year old "quality" boat even if well looked after needs a minimum of £10k to bring it up to the standard of my Bavaria.

I can never understand why people judge the quality of a boat by its ability to hit the ground hard. Of course for some people who sail in places like Scandinavia or in waters where there is lots of coral this is an important attribute, but for most of the rest of us it is completely irrelevant.