Tacking problems-long keel, straight stem

[Seagreen]

I'm an odd little problem. Cleone is very...bad at tacking. At low speed in light airs, she will swing into wind and then stop, and I either have to back a headsail and hope for the best, or put the engine on. Not desirable. In a decent breeze, she will carry her way round but still takes her time going through the wind. In any sort of short head sea, she will more than likely just be stopped.

So, Cleone is a gaff yawl, with a straight stem, and long straight keel. She sets a jib and staysail, the jib on a long straight bowsprit. Gaff main and small gaff mizzen, set well aft.

It doesn't seem to make much difference if I set the mizzen or not. I usually only set the mizzen in light airs going to windward. I've tried various combinations of tacking the jib first and then the staysail, and vice versa. She does have a very fine entry and I did wonder if boring a relieving hole or two through the stem to allow the water pressure to flow easier round the stem might work.

Any suggestions? Once sailing free, however, she goes 'like shot off a shivel'...

 

[Poignard]

If she will tack in a decent breeze that must be because she is sailing faster when you put the helm down.

In light airs you have somehow got to get more speed and the only way to do that must be either to have more sail up or bear away before tacking so as to pick up speed.

Another factor could be putting the rudder over too much so it acts as a brake.

 

[andrewbodenham]

tacking problems

Could this be a case of an under-sized rudder? What sort of size is Cleone, and what sort of rudder arrangement does she have?

My boat was always a bit hesitant about tacking, and after hauling her out for the first time I've decided to try increasing the area of the rudder blade by about 50% to see if I can make her a bit more responsive. The proof of the pudding, of course, will be to see how she handles when she goes back in after her re-fit.

I presume that you are freeing off the mainsheet as you try to bear away so that she's not trying to weather-cock back into the wind.

 

[oldharry]

I had an Eventide 26 which had had the keel extended right aft, with a transom hung rudder. She was a delight to sail, except in light weather she would not go about. Up into the wind and...stop. I developed a technique which (nearly) always worked: I found that if I kept her sailing as I brought her in to the wind, keeping the jib set, she would come round far enough for the wind to back the jib and carry the bow on round. We got it down to a fine art with a bit of practice, and would have the other jibsheet hauled in tight ready to catch the jib as soon as the bow was far enough through the wind to re-set it on the other tack, without it going all over the place.

After a while we got so used to it that we always tacked this way whatever the wind strength.

 

[srm]

Don't think holes in the stem will do anything much, other than spoil a nice boat.

Used to sail an 8 CR with long overhangs (equivalent to bowsprit) but very marked cut away to the keel. Tacking in light airs could be a problem once boat speed dropped if the main was sheeted in tight. We used to ease main and let the jib or genoa back slightly until bow was through the wind.

Try sheeting main and jib in hard as you start to turn to keep power up, then easing main and letting jib back as you come into the wind. Also, have you tried hauling the mizzen to windward as you go into the tack to push the stern around? (An air rudder) This will probably need a tackle led to windward if your stern is wide enough, but may not slow her as much as a backed jib.

All boats used to be like yours before the 'infernal confusion engine' came along and complicated things, so there has to be a seaman like answer making use of the rig or, if some of the old photos are a guide, a long sweep.

My first offshore trip was on a 1914 Linton Hope design, and the skipper inadvertently took us out into a full gale. (Long ago when forecasts were hard to come by) I learnt about storm jibs and trysails that day. We also had difficulty tacking in the steep waves and unbalanced sail plan so we gybed, or as the skipper put it 'wear ship' - probably because it sounds less frightening than gybing in a force 8.

 

[westernman]

I have a long keeler too. And sometimes have had problems tacking.

In light airs, hang on the jib and staysail until they are backing well. The main needs to be sheeted in pretty hard.

Also put the rudder over gently at first and then harder as you come up into the wind. But never more than 30 degrees. Make sure you are moving as fast as possible before you start. It is often worth freeing off 5 degrees or so from the wind to accelerate a bit before starting.

I once had a beach catamaran with no jib at all. That would never tack if you put the helm down quickly. You had to put the helm down very gently and slowly - only when almost head to wind would you have it down at about 30 degrees.

On my long keel pilot cutter its seems to work the same - despite the beach cat being 120kg and the pilot cutter being 34000kg!!!

 

[Peterduck]

When I first got my old long-keeled gaff ketch, I first had to learn that I had to cast off the jib-sheet in order to tack at all. Later on I devised a light gun tackle from the middle of the mizzen boom to the aft mizzen chainplate so that I could haul the mizzen to weather, acting like a rudder. It also meant that as the main was in the eye of the wind, the mizzen was till drawing. Then, with a bit of deft backing of the jib, we were around!
Peter.

 

[Seagreen]

I think I must have tried all of the above at one time or another. The worst cases usually happen in really light air in a choppy swell, where a combination of all factors stop a tack dead. The mizzen usually just acts as a brake and I get to do a bit of sternboarding. The rudder size is quite good for her length and when moving, she's not slow to round up to wind, just stops when she gets there.

In really poor conditions I usually just say "feckit" and wear, given enough searoom. ("Gybing" is for dinghies). Its usually a lot less stressful.

An ideal combination of longish seas and enough wind to provide acceleration into the tack are essential. It also helps if there is enough crew to handle the sheets effectively without the jib sheet in particular wrapping itself round everything on deck. I do leave the sheets set so that ideally, the jib and staysail back well before sheeting them accross, especially if I'm on my own.

It seems to make all the difference having the jib pulling first even though the staysail backs and slightly stalls the main. Having the jib stay backed while the staysail powers up the main just seems to force the bows to leeward more. I was wondering if there was a preferred sequence with the headsails, like 'jib first then staysail' or vice versa?

 

[sarabande]

the jib is further away from the turning point of the boat, so exerts a greater turning effort. Did you say that you keep the staysl backed ? Would it be worth letting it free so that the jib can work and help generate windflow on the main ?

(16 tons, long keel; tried all sort of combinations, and gaining momentum seems to be the most useful))

 

[westernman]

Try going slowing on the rudder - you won't believe me until you try!
(Just like I didn't at first ;-)

 

[laurance]

I was wondering if there was a preferred sequence with the headsails, like 'jib first then staysail' or vice versa?

On all working craft i've sailed, Sailing Barges, West Country Ketch, Schooners, a Bawley, Smacks, BCPC, the sequence has always been, helm down then as the jibs or jib luff let them fly (the centre of effort has now shifted aft helping the turn) then hold the staysail/foresail aback with sheet or, for preference, with the bowline. if there is enough way on sheet home the jibs before they fill on the new tack but in any case hold onto the foresail/staysail until through stays.
The large working crafts' bowline, if you are not familiar with it, is merely a short strong rope spliced into a cringle at about head height up the leech of the foresail. Before going about, it is set up through a bullseye seized at the same height as the cringle on the nearest shroud then down to a cleat or pin. The genius of this system is that being someway up the leach of the sail it backs it well before the sheet would, then is simply let go once through stays and set up on the opposite shroud for the next tack. I have worked a hundred tons of barge to weather in the lightest airs and holding on to her big foresail fitted with a bowline, all things being equal, she never misses stays. Food for thought perhaps, no reason the bowline could not be led back to the cockpit on a small boat, and one fitted either side so they do not need to be re-rove after each tack.

 

[Hellenarc]

On all working craft i've sailed, Sailing Barges, West Country Ketch, Schooners, a Bawley, Smacks, BCPC, the sequence has always been, helm down then as the jibs or jib luff let them fly (the centre of effort has now shifted aft helping the turn) then hold the staysail/foresail aback with sheet or, for preference, with the bowline. if there is enough way on sheet home the jibs before they fill on the new tack but in any case hold onto the foresail/staysail until through stays.
The large working crafts' bowline, if you are not familiar with it, is merely a short strong rope spliced into a cringle at about head height up the leech of the foresail. Before going about, it is set up through a bullseye seized at the same height as the cringle ....

That’s the way!laurance is absolute right . A classic boat it is use to be used without engine.
And instead of it, the rigging is little more complicate, as long it works for that purpose.