Syndicate advice wanted

[gregmlucas]

I'm thinking seriously about buying a share in a boat rather than my own (as a first purchase). This seems to me to present many advantages - spending my £20k on a third or quarter share means I get a lot more for my money (for "more" read SWMBO-friendly) and lower running costs than I would spending the same money on 100% of something smaller, older and less likely to get SWMBO's vote. Obviously, I get correspondingly less access to the boat but I probably wouldn't get the time to sail my own boat more once a month or so anyway.

I actually have a particular boat in mind so would like some advice...

I more or less understand how the process would work buying outright but how does the process work with a syndicate?

Presumably, the other syndicate members get a say in who buy's a share in "their" boat?

If there is a survey within the last few years should I still think about getting my own and if so what cost can I expect?

What are the pitfalls I need to watch out for? (especially if you're talking from experience)

I'm sure I'll come up with few more questions but thanks in adavance for any help.

. . Greg

 

[Talbot]

Agreement has to be in writing, it has to cover the following:

How to join the syndicate
How to leave the syndicate.
Agreement for what datesare whose.
Agreement about how to swop dates.
Agreement on financial share of maintenance.
Agreement on physical share of maintenance, and how that can be offset by financial increase.
Agreement on how to handle any disagreements.
Agreement on how long afloat.
Agreement on how many years before boat replacement, and procedure for decision.

Boat share is not a friendly system, but a business deal - through which real friendship may develop!

 

[Lizzie_B]

Have been involved in two, and have friends and relatives who have been.
Would second everything said previously and add,

It is important that syndicate members are clear what they each want to get out of their sailing as this can be a cause for conflict.
Eg, if the bulk of the syndicate are keen on racing and one member just wants to cruise.
I seem to recall in my own experience we used a downloadable agreement from the RYA which we made one or two minor changes to to suit our exact circumstances.
The MCA Bill of Sale requires that the shares are expressed as a number of 64ths, so a quarter share is 16/64ths

 

[Skyva_2]

If you would like a copy of the RYA syndicate agreement PM me with your email address.
Agree with everything said; be very clear on what happens if anyone leaves or at termination of the partnership.
We did it for 10 years and it worked well, the hassles were bearable when offset against the benefits.

 

[cliff]

Don't forget housekeeping "rules" ie cleaning the boat after you use it and leaving it in a certain minimum condition for the next in the rota.

Who pays for damage? e.g. you are out sailing and it blows up a bit and you don't reduce sail early and Rrrriiiiiippp - you tear a sail - who pays? the "syndicate" or you? or you run over a lobster pot line and damage the prop / "P" bracket / shaft etc - who pays

You drop the hook somewhere and get it snagged and cannot retrieve it leading to a new anchor and chain - who pays?

You make a bad approach to the pontoon and "Cccrrrunch". Ooops, who pays?

Boat out of commission due to damage when it is someone else's "turn" on the rota - what happens?

Fuel & gas? Fuel easy - top her off after the end of your "turn", Gas? not so easy. May not seem like much cost but if you are the one to get the empty bottle a couple of times in a row you would not be too pleased.

What would happen if it was your "turn" and it was blowing a hoolie so you could not get out? Would you lose your turn on the rota or would the rota "slip".

Who gets the "prime" weeks (or weekends) such as bank holiday weekends etc?

"Winter" maintenance? Do you get a yard to do it, and spend lots more money, or DIY the antifouling / anode change etc?

Maybe others could offer advice as to how they handled situations such as the above?

Personally I would not entertain a boat share agreement. I would either wait until I had the funds for a suitable boat, settle for something older (nothing wrong with the majority of older boats), charter as and when the urge took me or forget sailing and take up another hobby.

I think for it to work it has to be run on a business or commercial basis with detailed clauses / conditions otherwise it could be a recipe for disaster.

There are many ways damage or loss can occur so you really need to sort out how such things would be covered.
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"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"
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[gregmlucas]

As always, some really helpful info here.

Mark (Talbot) - good to see you're still around although obviously a very different time zone right now. I take it you didn't sail there this time? Good comprehensive list and I think you're right; such partnerships should always be conducted on a business basis.

Mark (Lizzie_B) - long time no speak. See you still have your catalina - she was down Florida way last time we spoke. It's good to read about some positive experiences of boat sharing.

Kieth - PM sent - thanks

Cliff - you've highlighted something I hadn't thought of - I guess such things should be covered by fully comp insurance but I will check that out. I agree, there's nothing wrong with older boats. I spent a year or so crewing on a Sadler 29 that wouldn't cost much more than my budget. Great boat that, for me personally, I would be more than happy with but such classics just won't get SWMBO's buy in - hence the syndicate compromise.

Would any of you (or any other forumites) care to advise on whether I should be getting a survey for "just" a share and if so what is this likely to cost? A percentage of the boat's value perhaps?

 

[mandlmaunder]

With a large sum of money another option is to charter for the weeks and weekends you want.
No maintenance, repair, moving ,and storing costs. Just put the cash away somewhere that pays interest, and call it your sailing fund, the other advantage of chartering as opposed to any form of ownership is that if you want to sail in any area you dont have to move the boat there first, (even if the moving is part of the fun), then get it back as well.
This way you can also arrange for friends/family to come along SHARING the costs!

 

[ytd]

I have only ever owned (keel boats) through syndicates, ie, a group of friends get together and buy a boat. The biggest benefit is that you have a ready made crew. Our first boat was purchased in 1976 and there are still 2 members of that syndicate in the current syndicate of 7, 4 boats later. Next biggest benefit is that you can afford bigger/newer boats than as a single owner and maintenance and upgrades are cheaper. Decisions are made by consensus.

Some quick answers to the questions above
We don't have a rota. One member handles bookings and where there is a clash he will allocate on the basis of usage over the past year. Same principle for special events. If someone has a booking and you really want to use the boat that day, you call and negotiate.

the syndicate pays for damage unless there is obvious negligence but purp has to arrange repair, asap. Ripping a sail in f8 is not obvious negligence. Loosing an anchor and chain because the bitter end wasn't tied on is. Boat has fully comp insurance.

boat has to be cleaned after each use and generally is.

boat out of commission or bad weather when you have a booking - bad luck.

syndicate pays for fuel and gas after adjustment for usage.

long cruises are handled by swapping crews along the way. Once the cruise is agreed to, members don't whinge just because they can't use the boat when it's away cruising but cruising members pay for cruise costs.

once members agree to do a race or series, sail upgrades etc are paid for by the syndicate but other race costs are paid by the racing members only.

if you want to leave the syndicate you find a buyer for your share. If you can't find a buyer and need the money, the remaining members will buy the share at a discount.

we get a yard to do maintenance unless the majority of members agree to work on the boat on a particular weekend

we have a formal partnership agreement.

If you want formal guarantees on costs and times then chartering is the best option. There needs to be compromises on usage in a boat share but the overall cost is much less and it is "your" boat so you can fit it out how you like and sail it where and when you want.

 

[mireland]

I would second the chartering option. No matter what you have in terms of an agreement it can never cover all the potential pitfalls and could lead to real hassles. What is the benefit of owning rather than chartering other than the warm glow of knowing its 'part' yours? I bought and though I love the boat I do regret the decision. I get far less use than I imagined possible even though at the outset I thought I was being very realistic! Much sailing time goes on maintaining the boat and I now feel I would be much better off chartering a shiny boat when I want one. Just a thought.

 

[ostra4]

Lots of good advice above .I have been in a bad share (2 years) and a good share (8 years) before we had enough to but outright .If you want to try and cover every angle even down to gas usage then its probably not for you .If you are prepared to accept compromises and the chance that you may end up paying for someone elses fuel on the odd occasion then its worth considering .In my last good syndicate the previouis guy never filled up the fuel for us -always left it half empty but as we used boat lots more than anyone else we decided the extra few gallons of derv was worth keeping the peace .If you need to start resorting to agreements then it certainly wouldnt have worked for us although there was an agreemnt in place .I never heard anyone refer to agreement although all were aware it existed .Most work fine but ask lots of searching questions to get a feel for how its run .Good luck .