surveyors opinion

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suziekatie27

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hello everyone
Can someone give me some good legal advice,
I hired a surveyor but i dont believe he has inspected the boat very well
i have recieved the report which was written up very quickly
i read it to find it did not include all the defaults he told me about
he does not seem very bothered in the fact some of the inventory agreed was not avalable for survey
and i have no idea to the condition of these now
when i told him my concern he said he would write in the report what was missing
but when i recieved it it was not there the whole summery of the report says nothing of the boats over all condition

he has not tried to get the price reduced he seems to be on the sellers side more than mine
help somethings not right
any ideas
 
I cant give you legal advise, as it is up to you what you contract the surveyor to do. I also don't believe its the surveyors job to try and get the price reduced.

You decide you like the boat and offer a price you are happy to pay as long as its in the condition you have seen it and any faults have been detailed by the seller. If the survey fails to pick up any material faults in the vessel then it's as you wanted it, at the price you offered. If there are material defects then you can pull out of the purchase or offer them less money.

What the survey should do is give you an expert opinion as to the condition of the vessel and its fittings and sometimes accessories, but very often this does not include things like electronics unless you specifically request them to look at this. The same goes for outboards and dinghies.

If he (or she) the surveyor hasn't done what you asked of them then they havn't fulfilled their obligations as contracted, and I would refuse to pay them until they had.

If you subsequently find that what they have said on the survey is not correct and it effects the value of the boat then you're in the complex area of proving this and then trying to get compensation from their insurers.

If you're a member of the RYA maybe ask them to take a look at the survey report, or find a friendly boat yard engineer who can give you a second opinion on the report and the boat for a beer or two.

In my experience I learnt nothing from having a survey done, it was purely needed for the insurance to have a "proffessional" to show it was a boat that had a value of X pounds, should it sink and be claimed on.

Hope that didn't sound too unhelpful or negative, I'm lucky in that I've looked at a lot of boats over the years, and know what I'm looking for or at.

Good luck, and where's the boat?
 
As a Surveyor ....

When requested to attend a boat to inspect ..... the surveyor should ask what the report is for and what you are actually reqyuiring to be inspected.

There are some out there that just say - yeh OK - thats xxx pounds and write up a few sheets without regard to what client wants ...

You have to look back to what you asked him / her to do and also what the report is for. Balance that with what is now in your hands ....

Normal exclusions that most surveyors will not inspect fully or may only comment on visual condition :

Engines - in / outboards and attachments, shafts etc.
Electrics and switch gear
Electronics unless craft is in a location or position suitable to run and check - then only that it switches on / off.
Hidden or buried areas of the craft where access is limited.
Dinghys / tenders and associated items.
Gas / fuel Installations
Rigging - standing and running
(Above items eg rigging cannot be tested without dismantling and NDT - therefore are reported as per reported age and visual only)

Reason being that a Surveyor cannot be master of all trades or a Houdini to get in / out of all areas and holes ... He has to base his "JUDGEMENT" on the available eveidence and materials at hand ... his experience and knowledge indicating areas of concern etc.

If you feel you have received a duff report - you should press hard on the acting surveyor and be sure you cover all points. IF you still are unhappy - then push him to re-attend the craft and complete the job properly - WITH YOU there ....
If he refuses and you feel you have a strong enough case ... and you have apid him already - thats silly and not normal practice - then approach Small Claims Court for recovery of fees and costs ....

Note - It is unlikely that you will be able to recover compensation for defects later found that he missed in his report - as most reports have disclaimers for this reason about latent and hidden defects, E,OE etc.

Good luck - I don't like hearing about bad inspections in our biz - it hits back on others and gives a bad name ...

Finally - the use of a Recognised "Professional" body as some will advise .... is NO GUARANTEE at all and the body does not protect you as a client from their members errors. In fact there are no real exact Pro Qualifications for Yacht Surveying - forget the bumf you hear from such as YBDSA etc. Bodies such as they are self-appointed - self regulated and based on previous Survey History of a member to gain membership - NOT Professional Qualifications etc.

It is wise to choose a well reccommended local Surveyor regardless of affiliation .... check around local yards and clubs - Marinas are not so good a source of advise - as most have resident Surveyor and that is what they will put forward ... Remember an Independent should be exactly that ...

If I was back in UK - I take it survey was in UK - I would help you ... in fact here's an offer .... PM me and I'll try and help you as much as I can ....
 
As a retired boatbuilder I have seen and been involved in a lot of surveys. Even then I don't profess to know everything there is to know and am still learning something new every day. There are good bad and indifferent surveyors like everything else. It does not help a great deal now in your case, but it might help others to reflect before they employ one, that just like plumbers, electricians etc. or any other tradesmen or professional it is wise to seek references beforehand and as Nigel has suggested determine the exact scope of things to be covered in the survey.
If you think about it, to give a comprehensive survey a chap has to have a good understanding of boat (ship) structures, materials (wood, metal, composites) be an engineer (to comment on mechanical and electrical equipment), a rigging expert, a naval architect and a lot more. Many are not from the boatbuilding industry originally and/or are not qualified engineers or whatever. Personally I always ignore the qualifications specific to being a surveyor and ask for a CV to see what the chap had been before he became one. Then I ask how long he has been one and how many surveys he has done. Has he ever worked for Lloyds DNV or anyone else in the business of ship surveying? Also ask to see a sample of the reports that he usually produces beforehand. These questions usually reveal the guy's expertise and background at least to some extent. I believe that Nigel would concur that the best of his profession would not object to being questioned and deplore what appears to be an increasing number of people who are less professional than they should be. Also, like anything else, if you have not paid him, with hold payment until he satisfies a minimum standard. Thats a bit like shutting the door after the horse has bolted though.....
 
Sorry to butt in on this thread, but I am a bit confused as to when surveryors are used. I've gathered that you need a surveyor's report when gaining insurance, as they will go with the value the surveyor has agreed the boat is worth.
But what about when you buy a boat? Do you hire a surveyor to make sure the boat is sound? Or is it just for the insurance thingy?
 
Re: As a Surveyor ....

[ QUOTE ]

Normal exclusions that most surveyors will not inspect fully or may only comment on visual condition :

Engines - in / outboards and attachments, shafts etc.
Electrics and switch gear
Electronics unless craft is in a location or position suitable to run and check - then only that it switches on / off.
Hidden or buried areas of the craft where access is limited.
Dinghys / tenders and associated items.
Gas / fuel Installations
Rigging - standing and running
(Above items eg rigging cannot be tested without dismantling and NDT - therefore are reported as per reported age and visual only)



[/ QUOTE ]

If all this is excluded - a survey is not going to tell you much you can't see for yourself.
Weasel words to look out for are: "appears in good condition", "reasonable wear & tear",... And of course my old favorite: engine - present. Thank you for pointing that one out; I missed it.

Once Yanita's sold and we move on to our next boat; there are 3 people I'm taking along for a survey - 2 friends (RN mechanic & electricians) and a retired rigger. And I will know that they're on MY side.

Have a survey if your insurance insists upon it, otherwise it's just a waste of money (all IMHO of course)
 
Cardo, people often hire surveyor just because they are making a substantial investment and want an 'expert' to confirm that it is in good condition

I had a survey on my boat - 2001 Nauticat - the survey didn't turn up anything wrong at all and valued it considerably higher than the price i was paying. This gives you some feeling of comfort at the time.

Having used the boat for 8 months now I found three significant items that could have been detected but weren't.

The windlass gypsy had to be changed to suit a heavy guage chain (the previous owner never anchored!), the generator was installed in such a way that it was almost impossible to check the oil let alone service and i have had to rotate it, and the earth plate on the hull had been replaced incorrectly.

I'm a 'mechanical engineer' (inverted commas used as precaution) myself and i didn't notice any of these things initially either and feel the surveyor excused for doing likewise. Others may not feel that way.

Basically i wanted assurance that i wasn't buying a big problem and the boat was as described.
 
Use of Surveyors ....

They can be used at ant t6ime you have reason to to .... for example :

Pre-purchase Survey - to advise you possible value and faults to bargain with seller.
Periodic Survey - To ascertain condition of craft at intervals usually required by various Insurance Companys.
Damage Survey - After collision / damage or other that calls into question structure or condition of craft.
Loss Assessment Survey - To assess loss Claim for Insurance purposes.
Loss Adjustment Survey - Insurance Companys survey to reduce or even void claim ...

There are various other surveys that fall into the above categories and should not be regarded as comprehensive. You may wish to have someone like myself monitor a boat during drying out for Osmosis tretament. You may want me to oversee a refit, etc. etc.

The use of surveyors usually in the context we are in now is : Pre-Purchase assessment of boat for buyer to decide his price or acceptance of boat ... Insurance Survey to gain insurnace cover once purchased.

Unfortunately - it is often the case that Clients do not instruct Surveyor fully and then differences occur / Insurnace Company restrictions or requirements result .....

FULL discussion of all aspects of Inspection BEFORE survey, during and also BEFORE report is written should be made - I for one present provisional report after survey, as well as describing all matters found during survey ... so that client has time and possibility to voice his concerns / opinions / requirements before final binding report is issued .... sadly not all do that ...
 
Re: Use of Surveyors ....

So when going to see a boat that you seriously be considering buying, it's good practice to take a surveyor along with you so they can get a good look at it to make sure you're not buying a lemon?
 
Yanita ... very unfair.

Interested if you looked at a House Survey, RAC / AA Car Inspection or other survey carried out for Clients.

In this world of Scam Claims and those who go out of their way to balme others - is it no wonder that we have to protect ourselves against claims etc. often unfairly lodged ...

Would you sign off an item that you could not strip down and inspect fully .... are you an engine expert and electronics wizz-kid ... nor am I - so I do not pretend or say that I cover those ....

I do not knbow of any profession or other that does not have exclusion clauses or other in their reports / findings / papers ... so why should I risk a claim for something that I have no control over ??

I agree that your system of having good reliable pro's in each department is a good one - but you are lucky and have that luxury ... many others do not .... I pride myself on providing a very good Commercial Service to the Shipping Industry ... I listen to all sides and developments.

In fact I have declined many a Yacht Survey over last few years - because of the attitude and manner that has resulted from others creating an arena of Mistrust etc. The requests I have received from potential Clients begs me to question what they understand about surveys ...

I am sorry to type this post - especially last part - but Yanita you struck a chord that was in all fairness a good comment - but last line is not .... that is your opinion and I hope that others will not fall foul by following it too literally.
 
Re: Use of Surveyors ....

The surveyor is not on anyone's 'side' .He or she is just doing a survey of an inanimate object.Think cars and MOT inspection if you like !
Was he/she recommended and are they accredited,what are the qualification letters on their headed note paper? Did you pay a market rate for the survey?
Whatever the outcome it sounds as though you are right now all too aware of the likely areas that may require attention and therefore you have enough knowledge and information to make an intelligent offer-or walk away.. Good luck
 
Re: Use of Surveyors .... careful ....

YOU look at boats possible that you want to buy ..... you decide a short list of which you consider are best / suited ..... haggle prices etc. till you get to the 1 boat that fits your needs ... ALL PRICES HAGGLED / AGREED subject to Survey and Contract.

Once you have that final boat in mind - then look around and check with yards / other boat-owners around the area as to who is recc'd to survey ... DO NOT trust the Broker on this - do not ask the Seller who to use ... Do not just accept the first Name Plate you see in the marina / yard etc.

You take an independent reccommended Surveyor to the boat having discussed with him fully beforehand what you want, why you like the boat etc. DO NOT tell him what you found ... see if he finds it !! Be with him while he surveys ... ask him as many questions - silly and not so silly - YOU are paying for the service .... you have a right to be a pain in the arse !!

Before he writes the report discuss every aspect you feel / he comments on ... etc.

OK ??
 
Misunderstood \"profession\" ???

Accredited / Qualified ...... interesting words .... to what may I ask ??

Not starting an argument - but there are no stautory or Industry Required .... the "job" is open to anyone who cares to call themselves a Surveyor !!

There are bodies such as YBDSA who wiull tell you otherwise ... sorry but load of bunkum ... they are promoting their own members only and self-regulated. There is a body in London that is more to Professional than anyone ... sorry can't remember exact title - but is based on Professional Marine Engineers and Architects ....

Sorry to burst the balloon ... but best in my opinion is a time served Boatyard guy .... preferably the hands on Boat-builder !!! Often not formally qualified ...... !!
 
Re: Use of Surveyors .... careful ....

Cost of survey is dependent on type of survey carried out and is then a factor of boat size. Some surveyors will charge for travel (additional time and mileage) some don't - a lot depends on where they regularly work.

The last survey I had done (for the insurance company) was a condition and valuation survey. I think the cost was about £250 for the Twister at 28'3" (8.61m). Don't know how current that guide is though, it was done about 3 yrs ago.

IMHO, there are rather alot of survey reports produced that just don't stand up to scrutiny - and quite frankly aren't worth the paper they're written on. However, the only advise I would give is when instructing a surveyor, select one who comes highly recommended - ask other boat owners what they really thought of their surveyor and the report he/she produced.

It can be a bit of a minefield out there, so good luck!
 
Re: Use of Surveyors .... careful ....

Fully agree with that one. When our last survey was done I was giving a friend a hand rigging his boat. The surveyor was on our boat for about 5 hrs and certainly didn't mind being questioned about what he'd found. He even gave additional verbal advise not within the additional scope of the survey. Ok, so that stuff wasn't in his final report, but at least he took the time to go over all the additional aspects - and at no extra fee.
 
Unfair? I think not.

Hi Nigel,

Let me tell you a tale of woo...

I have been sailing most of my adult life, yet am (was) relatively new to yacht ownership. I am sure you will agree with me that the difference between sailing a yacht and owning a yacht is HUGE.

I would imagine that there are a lot of first time buyers out there in a similar position. They know how to sail a boat, yet look for reassurance that they are not buying a lemon. It is , IMHO, the fields that you seem to exclude (electrics, engine, rigging, etc...) where they would benefit most from a survey.

We had Yanita surveyed before we bought her, but might as well not have bothered. The survey report was rife with the words I mentioned in my earlier post. And over the next 18 months we experienced Star Trek - To Boldly Break Down Where No-one Has Broken Down Before. She fell to bits as and when we sailed her. Three years and tens of thousands of pounds later she is in very good shape. She has now been re-engined, rewired and completely refitted. Many of her faults should, again IMHO, have been picked up by the surveyor.

With the limitations you seem to set, the only thing a survey will tell you is whether the boat will float or not.

Once bitten... When we proceed towards our next boat, I have decided not to bother with a "professional" survey, unless the insurance insits upon it. In which case I will get the cheapest one available.

Regards

Will
 
Re: Use of Surveyors ....

Cardo, in your case, you are buying primarily to live aboard. Think of it as you would buy a house, you need a survey to make sure what you are buying is structurally sound, is safe and is worth the money.

But, most importantly, a survey can be used to identify problems that will cost you money in the future and you can you this information to make a lower offer.
 
Re: Unfair? I think not.

Unfortunately, I think your experiences are not in the minority - and there lies the problem. Whilst there are many surveyors out there and some are very competent and experience, there are an awful lot of 'cowboy' acts also trading.

I am reminded of a survey report I once saw of a boat that we didn't buy (fortunately) where the engine was reported as being a Yanmar - it was a Petter (very different), the fuel tank was the water tank and vice versa, the top of the transom hung rudder (ie, very visible) was rotten, no mention in report, etc, etc.

The list was endless. However, I feel that perhaps you are being a little unfair tarring all surveyors with the same brush. Your contempt is totally forgiveable given your own experiences, but believe me, there really are some very good ones out there.....

The problem is finding them!!

If anyone needs a good surveyor in the southwest (one only really operates in Cornwall) there's two that I would have no hesitation in recommending. I'm sure there are others who are equally competent, I just happen to have had very good experiences with those two.

By the way, I'm not and nor am I related to a surveyor (for the record).
 
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