Studland has it all !
- Thread starter ribrage
- Start date
oldharry
Well-known member
Chichester harbour use 'GPS technology' to determine speeds, and have acheived several succesful prosecutions, such as http://www.conservancy.co.uk/assets/assets/press_speeding.pdf
gavin_lacey
New member
Sooner or later the uk is going to introduce compulsory licensing of some boats and those in charge of them. At present it is only in UK boating that someone with no experience can drive a 700hp machine with no third party insurance. Forcing car drivers or pilots to be qualified is not seen as an infringement of basic rights. Why not boats? More than 10 knots, more than 3 tons then licensing makes sense if only for the ability to take the licence away from idiots.
flyingscampi
New member
The trouble with compulsory licensing is that the sort of people that cause trouble on the water won't bother with licensing and will take their chances (like people who drive without licenses or insurance).
colvic987
Active member
And the law abidding sailor will then have to fork out another couple of hundred pounds a year to keep doing this activity, and stay within the law, with his complete portfolio of paperwork just to go and enjoy himself, whilst the lawbreaker, comes down, does his bit to annoy the majority, packs up and goes home, cost to him nothing.
toad_oftoadhall
New member
st599
Well-known member
So they read the speedo as they chase you?
Better idea than the speed gun and more of a deterrent.
grumpy_o_g
Well-known member
You could be right, though I hope not. For a long time the only requirement to fly a glider (which is a often a bigger, heavier and faster piece of kit than a single-engined light aircraft) was a medical self-declaration and third-party insurance. Eventually the government introduced regulations broadly in line with the US and Europe but it made no noticeable difference to the accident statistics.
I suspect it's rarely the the big 700hp jobs that cause the real problems, it's the RIB's, speedboats, PWC's in the powerboat world, probably because they're cheaper and faster. The idiot in a sailing dinghy tends to be an annoyance rather than a danger and even a larger yacht usually does it's damage in the marina to other boats rather than people.
The problem is that it's very difficult to control the licencing of a small, trailable boat. The licencing and testing of people to drive cars and fly aircraft is an infringement of your liberty but most would regard it as justifiable. If the restriction on our liberty doesn't result in some other benefit then it isn't justifiable.
gavin_lacey
New member
I dont really accept that it would be that difficult to licence boats, the rest of europe seems to manage it. The technology for linking, licence, MOT, insurance works for cars. I would agree that the setting up of such a system and the effort for all concerned would only be justified if there was considerable benefit. If poorly driven craft are not really a problem then no point. But a number of posters on these fora seem to think it is an increasing problem and dangerous. There must be a balance between lives, injuries and freedom. Unless dangerous behavior is curbed then a few deaths, a media outcry and licensing are almost inevitable. How do those of you who oppose licensing suggest that the dangers are reduced.
toad_oftoadhall
New member
What dangers?
Almost nobody dies sailing. It's practically unheard of. A few more in RIBs but it's hardly a major problem compared to, say, cycling or horse riding which kill people in comparitively large numbers. (I'm sure I read somewhere that golf is more dangerous than sailing although I've never found a source for that.)
You can count the deaths here it'll take you about 30 seconds (I assume the MAIB investigate every death):
http://www.maib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports/reports_by_vessel_type_/leisure_craft.cfm
What percentage of this tiny handful of incidents would be prevented by licensing? Especially when you look at the car test which indicates prettly clearly to me that the 'difficulty level' of the test would be set at a point where literally everyone passes it.
IMHO there's no benefit to licensing of leisure craft and a significant cost and hassle. If more licensing is required anywhere then a harder car test and regular retesting would be a better target.
For what it's worth I don't even think the Govt want licensing - it won't bring much cash in and will be a nightmare to enforce.
Tranona
Well-known member
The "dangers" are minimal as all the evidence indicates. I have read all the MAIB reports and rarely is incompetence a factor and there has never to my knowledge been any recommendation for licencing of either boats or users.
European countries do indeed have licencing systems - helps keep unemployment down. No indication that accident rates are any different from the UK - that is minimal. The only pressure for licencing in the UK has been for fiscal reasons, like the latest suggestion for a tax to support navigation aids. Unlikely to happen as there is no room for the army of enforcers and administrators needed - never mind the difficulty of defining who pays in the first place.
The only bit where you are right is that legislation may come as a result of social pressure. However, I think we have learned from the drinking fiasco to be vigilant. That legislation came about largely as the result of the Marchioness disaster - where drink was a major issue, but the accident was nothing to do with leisure boating. Leisure boating was "slipped in" to the otherwise sensible legislation without anybody really noticing. Its implementation seems to be off the agenda again, probably because, try as they might, its proponents could not find any credible evidence that drinking was a contributory factor in accidents.
Accidents on the water, like foxes attacking sleeping children, are very rare and individual events. Much as I hate both foxes and PWC users, it is not a reason for culling them!
Twister_Ken
Well-known member
Testing and licencing only proves that you sailed sensibly whilst taking the test. There's no test that can stop the licenced skipper behaving like a loon once the licence has arrived in the post.
Look at who has most accidents on the roads. I believe it is newly qualified drivers.
Look at who has most accidents on the roads. I believe it is newly qualified drivers.
oldharry
Well-known member
That depends very much where you are... in a busy area like the Solent, minor accidents are commonplace. Collisions, falling in, misjudged approach resulting in ramming the jetty/pontoon, and frequent ignorance of colregs are all part of Solent life on a busy day, but go largely unnoticed because there is no need to report to authorities or insurers. I sailed in Cardigan Bay between 1960 and 1990, in the early days even meeting another yacht was an event, and you stopped for a chat, and accidents were 'rare and unique' events, usually occasioned by bad weather. Since coming to Chichester, the 'boom' of glass fibre bumping glass fibre is common enough to be ignored, and you only have to tune to Ch16/67 on a summer saturday afternoon to know that there is a steady flow of 'incidents' taking place on the water.
And the behaviour of PWC users round here beggars belief. Ok so it is a hooligan minority even within the PWC brigade - but that is enough for them to have already been banned from the harbour by CHC.
Its a different world to the quieter boating areas.
Tranona
Well-known member
That is the whole point - minor incidents when nobody gets hurt and are resolved by commonsense and tolerance. No need for some oppressive regulatory regime to deal with it.
To me, the telling thing is that the bodies responsible for safety and dealing with the rare serious incidents - MCGA, RNLI and MAIB, do not advocate compulsory licencing of any kind. Insurance premiums for covering third party risks are very low and another indicator that risks are low. (The majority of your premium is related to risk to your own boat).
colbo3765
New member
studland bay
Studland Bay, one of the most beautiful and strategically important anchorages along this part of the coast. We use it regularly when crusing. I have lost count of the number of times when I have seen idiotic 20 knot plus behaviour well inside the anchorage which is very dangerous, especially to those swimming or going ashore by tender not to mention the noise pollution. To cap it all in late April this year we watched in amazement as two young people were left unsupervised and allowed to race around the 'track' marked out by the voluntary no anchor zone in two high powered mini speedboats. The parents sat on two anchored powerboats closer to the beach seemingly unaware of the danger or annoyance that their children were causing.
The point that I am making here is that anyone who visits the anchorage knows of the problem. From what I have seen over the years it is a small minority of people who engage in this sort of anti-social behaviour and lead, inevitably to the jet ski type accident mentinoed earlier in this thread. Perhaps we need to police this ourselves and ALWAYS show our disaproval of such behaviour. If we dont do this then the authorities will inevitably step in and impose a law that prevents us all from enjoying this anchorage. That would be tragic.
Does anyone know why the coastguard seem unwilling to respond effectively to reports of speeding/dangerous behaviour within the anchorage? I have heard that they refer you to the Police, who presumably can do nothing about it as they dont have a boat or perhaps dont have jurisdiction in the bay?
Studland Bay, one of the most beautiful and strategically important anchorages along this part of the coast. We use it regularly when crusing. I have lost count of the number of times when I have seen idiotic 20 knot plus behaviour well inside the anchorage which is very dangerous, especially to those swimming or going ashore by tender not to mention the noise pollution. To cap it all in late April this year we watched in amazement as two young people were left unsupervised and allowed to race around the 'track' marked out by the voluntary no anchor zone in two high powered mini speedboats. The parents sat on two anchored powerboats closer to the beach seemingly unaware of the danger or annoyance that their children were causing.
The point that I am making here is that anyone who visits the anchorage knows of the problem. From what I have seen over the years it is a small minority of people who engage in this sort of anti-social behaviour and lead, inevitably to the jet ski type accident mentinoed earlier in this thread. Perhaps we need to police this ourselves and ALWAYS show our disaproval of such behaviour. If we dont do this then the authorities will inevitably step in and impose a law that prevents us all from enjoying this anchorage. That would be tragic.
Does anyone know why the coastguard seem unwilling to respond effectively to reports of speeding/dangerous behaviour within the anchorage? I have heard that they refer you to the Police, who presumably can do nothing about it as they dont have a boat or perhaps dont have jurisdiction in the bay?
oldharry
Well-known member
Policing the sea is generally not within the coastguard remit except in specialised circumstances such as the Shipping Lanes in Dover Straights where they have been given special responsibilities. As far as I am aware with pleasure craft the Coastguard can only work in an advisory capacity. They can not and apparently have no authority to for example actually stop Captain Calamity setting off yet again with his AA atlas and no safety gear in an unseaworthy boat, even though they know perfectly well that they will probably have to rescue him yet again within 24 hours.
The Police are not interested in water-borne activities because their resources are already stretched catching motorists.... Ever tried reporting theft from your boat? They really do not want to know. The odd hooligan on the water is of even less interest as they know it will all be over long before they get there anyway. Harbour authorities (at least here in Chi) seem to be the most effective water police as far as speeding and inconsiderate behaviour goes.
Bosun Higgs
N/A
They dont create anything like the same problem. Speed limits should only apply to things using engines in my view.
A
Alcyone
Guest
Milford has a water ranger, and designated zones for different activities. There is a leaflet on it here, showing the zoning:
http://www.mhpa.co.uk/uploaded/docs/MHPA Leisure Guide 2009.pdf
The water ranger clearly cannot be everywhere at once, but people do report breaches of the rules.
http://www.mhpa.co.uk/content.asp?article_id=1189
Seems quite sensible to me.
ARCO7
New member
DERRRRR !
Quote "Yeah wot about the Hobiecats speeding under sail" ????? !!!! ****
I've never heard such rubbish , and yes it should always and only apply to power driven vessels .
I must try regulating my speed under sail ? I say wind not to hard please we are entering the 5 knot zone ... and you over there on that Windsurfer .. you're doing 8 kernoties dismount immediately you bounder ,and careful you don't tread on any seahorses.
Quote "Yeah wot about the Hobiecats speeding under sail" ????? !!!! ****
I've never heard such rubbish , and yes it should always and only apply to power driven vessels .
I must try regulating my speed under sail ? I say wind not to hard please we are entering the 5 knot zone ... and you over there on that Windsurfer .. you're doing 8 kernoties dismount immediately you bounder ,and careful you don't tread on any seahorses.
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Sans Bateau
Well-known member
Speed limit in an anchorage should apply to every type of craft, no exception. It is ridiculous to suggest it should only apply to power vessels.
If there is a swimmer in the water a Hobbie at 15 - 20 knts can kill as easily as a power boat or jet ski can, there is no difference. What the hell makes anyone believe that people sat in a quiet anchorage wants to see a water skiing, jet skiing or Hobbie cat display? There is no shortage of space there. You want to sail your Hobbie, charge around on a jet ski, drag a water skier around or even let the kids 'play' with on the boats poweful ridged tender, then they can all F*** off out to sea where there is more room and they wont cause any nuisance.
If there is a swimmer in the water a Hobbie at 15 - 20 knts can kill as easily as a power boat or jet ski can, there is no difference. What the hell makes anyone believe that people sat in a quiet anchorage wants to see a water skiing, jet skiing or Hobbie cat display? There is no shortage of space there. You want to sail your Hobbie, charge around on a jet ski, drag a water skier around or even let the kids 'play' with on the boats poweful ridged tender, then they can all F*** off out to sea where there is more room and they wont cause any nuisance.