Studland has it all !

[Alcyone]

Personally, I'd like to see heavy fines when incidents like this occur. I don't actually think that patrols to enforce speed limits are practicable, but when an accident does occur, with plenty of witnesses and evidence, then is teh time to hit the message home hard.

Just as a matter of interest, though. Are these speed limits enforceable by law? Can anyone cite any cases where people have been done for speeding in one of these zones? If so, how do you prove, in a court if someone decided to fight it, exactly how fast a vessel was travelling?

 

[jhr]

Just as a matter of interest, though. Are these speed limits enforceable by law? Can anyone cite any cases where people have been done for speeding in one of these zones? If so, how do you prove, in a court if someone decided to fight it, exactly how fast a vessel was travelling?

Good question. My recollection is that they are usually enforceable via by-laws (I believe that's the case in Poole Harbour, though not so sure about Studland). I *think* they use speed guns in Poole. I've certainly read of quite substantial fines being levied for speeding in the past.

In a case like the one quoted, they seem to be spoilt for choice: breaking the speed limit; reckless endangerment of life and limb; maybe being drunk (allegedly) in charge of a vessel.....

However, on second thoughts a problem has just occurred to me: isn't there a piece of case law which determined that PWCs are not a vessel? Back to the drawing board.....

 

[Alcyone]

Good question. My recollection is that they are usually enforceable via by-laws (I believe that's the case in Poole Harbour, though not so sure about Studland). I *think* they use speed guns in Poole. I've certainly read of quite substantial fines being levied for speeding in the past.

In a case like the one quoted, they seem to be spoilt for choice: breaking the speed limit; reckless endangerment of life and limb; maybe being drunk (allegedly) in charge of a vessel.....

However, on second thoughts a problem has just occurred to me: isn't there a piece of case law which determined that PWCs are not a vessel? Back to the drawing board.....

That's interesting. The point being, I guess, that if a barrister argued in court that he was not speeding, and several witnesses said he was, would that stand up, in the absence, presumably, of speed gun evidence? I don't even know if, for example, mobile phone footage would count.

 

[Twister_Ken]

I rather assume a clever engineer could reliably establish a speed range, by examination of damage to the two vessels involved.

 

[Robin]

Poole Harbourmaster has speed guns and they have very successfully prosecuted speeders and quite heavy fines resulted, I think up to £500. However they cannot be everywhere all the time so plenty of offenders do escape and many not living locally may not even see the local newspaper reports either of the resulting court cases and fines.

Studland however is a different case because it is not under Poole Harbour Commissioners control but administered by Studland Parish Council I believe. The local marine police drop by from time to time.

There was a legal ruling I believe that said PWCs are not 'ships' so colregs don't apply. Daft ruling that needs to be re-visited surely?

In this case from what I've heard and read the plonker on the PWC should have the book, if not the whole library thrown at him. This wasn't an outsider ignorant of the local area and rules either, this berk runs a marine engineering business out of Cobbs Quay marina.

 

[Robin]

This is the damaged Tri

Story here (local paper)

http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/districts/purbeck/8206654.Jet_skier__came_at_me_like_Exocet_missile_/

 

[Alcyone]

Poole Harbourmaster has speed guns and they have very successfully prosecuted speeders and quite heavy fines resulted, I think up to £500. However they cannot be everywhere all the time so plenty of offenders do escape and many not living locally may not even see the local newspaper reports either of the resulting court cases and fines.

Studland however is a different case because it is not under Poole Harbour Commissioners control but administered by Studland Parish Council I believe. The local marine police drop by from time to time.

There was a legal ruling I believe that said PWCs are not 'ships' so colregs don't apply. Daft ruling that needs to be re-visited surely?

In this case from what I've heard and read the plonker on the PWC should have the book, if not the whole library thrown at him. This wasn't an outsider ignorant of the local area and rules either, this berk runs a marine engineering business out of Cobbs Quay marina.

Cheers Robin. That answers one question.

Yes, quite how PWC are not boats, I'm not clear on either.

And more good news. It seems that whether or not this guy does get prosecuted, the fact that he is a local businessman, and will be 'named and shamed' is at least something.

The sad point, of course, is it takes something like this for folk to take notice. Could have been worse, somone could have been killed.

 

[glashen]

Christchurch Council recently had a couple of prosecutions of RIBS,

Click

Not as widely reported as some of us might wish.

 

[cebuanosurf]

The effect of the legal ruling referred to by Robin is that the Marine Accident Investigation Branch cannot investigate this case because they have no powers to do so. I have that info from the MAIB themselves. The police are investigating but it seems that because of the ruling there are legal probelms over whether any action can be taken. This situation is extremely unsatisfactory and pressure needs to be brought upon the authorities to remedy the situation.

I'm not sure that a lot of regulation is necessarily the best solution to the problem of reckless PWC drivers, but it should at least be possible to bring a prosecution when someone endangers life through recklessness or negligence. I believe that it is extremely fortunate that no one was killed in this instance.

 

[mlines]

Many of these plonkers however are not using locally kept boats but are trailering them down from the smoke or Upper Dipstickingham, these are harder to control..

So shall I stop trailering my boat down to the coast as only the locals know best.....

This wasn't an outsider ignorant of the local area and rules either, this berk runs a marine engineering business out of Cobbs Quay marina.

...ah no, looks like we should ban all locals and leave it to the visitors.

 

[Robin]

So shall I stop trailering my boat down to the coast as only the locals know best.....

If you behave like these prats did yes please, otherwise welcome to Poole it is a lovely place.

...ah no, looks like we should ban all locals and leave it to the visitors.

Nobody said prats are restricted to visitors, we have several infamous ones including a local ex night club owner now infamous bankrupt. He paid £400 fines like they were a tip for a cafe waitress. What I mean is that those not living locally will not have seen the reports in the local papers, maybe not heard the local radio news or seen the local TV news. Also the Harbourmaster has less opportunity to trace the owners of trailered boats whereas the local ones will be harbour due payers and on his database.

 

[Robin]

Cheers Robin. That answers one question.

Yes, quite how PWC are not boats, I'm not clear on either.

And more good news. It seems that whether or not this guy does get prosecuted, the fact that he is a local businessman, and will be 'named and shamed' is at least something.

The sad point, of course, is it takes something like this for folk to take notice. Could have been worse, somone could have been killed.

More information on the history of the plonker concerned on the mobo forum here http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239519

 

[mlines]

Also the Harbourmaster has less opportunity to trace the owners of trailered boats whereas the local ones will be harbour due payers and on his database.

Of course we are all harbour dues payers even if we visit for the day

 

[Mark-1]

More information on the history of the plonker concerned on the mobo forum here http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239519

For a bit of balance there's more here too:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219804

 

[fireball]

That's ok then - as long has he's in the profession it's fine for him to act the plonker ... obvious init!

 

[Robin]

Of course we are all harbour dues payers even if we visit for the day

Lots of boats are launched off the beach at Studland (which is not covered by Poole) or where they haven't paid harbour dues so there is no record of the owners names and addresses. Local boats, by which I mean boats moored locally because the owners could be from anywhere, are recorded for harbour dues, will have a numbered sticker and can be traced to a marina berth, mooring and home address.

I don't have any hangups BTW about visiting trailered boats or people that don't live locally. I spent 22 years commuting to my boat here before moving here myself 22 years ago and my son trails a RIB down regularly from Wiltshire too. I do have hangups about the antics of some people who either don't know the local rules, don't give a hoot or just like to wreak havoc with no thought for others.

 

[Robin]

For a bit of balance there's more here too:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219804

They said the Whitehaven taxi driver was a nice guy too.

There was no excuse for what happened in Studland, there could very easily have been fatalities or very serious injuries this time and it is not the first time his antics have been reported either.

 

[RIB_imposter]

However, on second thoughts a problem has just occurred to me: isn't there a piece of case law which determined that PWCs are not a vessel? Back to the drawing board.....

There was a legal ruling I believe that said PWCs are not 'ships' so colregs don't apply. Daft ruling that needs to be re-visited surely?.

NO, firstly the case law determined that PWCs (or specifically the PWCs in that particular case) were not Vessels within the meaning of the Merchant Shipping Act. The Col Regs are quite separate. Any local byelaw is likely to specifically include and define PWC. On the face of it the ruling seemed crazy - but actually on the same basis you can probably argue that the full provisions of the MSA don't apply to e.g. a windsurf, your tender, or an optimist dinghy etc. That is probably common sense. That doesn't mean the col regs or other local byelaws are invalid though.

The effect of the legal ruling referred to by Robin is that the Marine Accident Investigation Branch cannot investigate this case because they have no powers to do so. I have that info from the MAIB themselves. The police are investigating but it seems that because of the ruling there are legal probelms over whether any action can be taken. This situation is extremely unsatisfactory and pressure needs to be brought upon the authorities to remedy the situation.

In this case there was definitely a vessel (within the meaning of the MSA) involved though so the MAIB could investigate. However there appears to be prescedent with the MAIB investigating outside their technical remit when it is in the public interest, e.g. the investigation of accidents on inland water.

 

[st599]

Bearing in mind that the report states the collision occurred in a 6 knot zone the Jet Ski was effectively banned and therein lies the problem. All sorts of rules and regulations could be introduced, but it may only be a few responsible yachtsmen and others you actually take any notice. Without expensive and heavy handed enforcement any restrictions could be useless even if proved necessary in the first place.

Speed limit is 6 knots for vessels, following high court ruling I bet it's easy to get the Beak to throw it out.

 

[st599]

Poole Harbourmaster has speed guns and they have very successfully prosecuted speeders and quite heavy fines resulted, I think up to £500. However they cannot be everywhere...

How do they use a speed gun? The doppler shift is proportional to angle of the gun to the vessel. Easily contolled on a road, where the road constrains direction of travel. In a situation with 2 degrees of freedom, you'd need 2 orthoganal speed guns to work out the scalar product. Plus, how do they null out wave returns?

Plus, they are quite difficult to keep in calibration. I'd be asking for that certificate.