Storm jib - starlight 35 - jenny tracks, extra tracks or barber haulers?

[gregcope]

Hi All,

I have a starlight 35 with an inner forestay and storm jib. Hoisting for practice once I could not see where to lead the sheets too. Running them to the Genoa tracks seemed to give a very wide sheet angle/gap. I would have thought to beat off a lea shore one would want a tighter sheet angle.

I believe I have seen yachts with a short inner track next to the mast on the coat roof. This seems expense to retrofit.

Would some adjustable barber haulers made of HMPE/low friction rings connected to the mast base work just as well? I see these increasingly fitted to modern, usually French, yachts to adjust the sheeting angle instead of a track.

Would seem like a cheapish solution.

Thoughts?

 

[differentroads]

I've not used my storm jib in anger (or fear, more likely) but I don't see myself beating off a lee shore with it tbh. In any wind that required a storm jib the leeway on my boat would give me cog of no better than 60 degrees off the wind! Its a reaching or, better yet, running sail for me. That said, I've a cutter that can carry comfortably the staysl and deep reefed main in a F8.

Your post has inspired me to try my storm sail upwind this winter in a F7 or 8, not a full blown storm! (an advantage of sailing in my part of the Med - winter winds and sea are still warm, the water is 100m derp not far offshore and we don't wind over tide seas except in the Strait of Gibraltar.) I'm going to guess that any wind requiring a storm sail will be too much for adjustment by a low friction ring or possibly even a snatch block, especially given the extra friction bringing the adjustment line aft. The sheet would be bar tight, surely? But I'll be happy to stand corrected by anyone who has real world experience.

 

[scottie]

We had a similar problem on a Hanse
We wanted to use a 100% jib rather than self tacker so fitted short track on coachroof top
Luckily Hanse had built in reinforcements

 

[gregcope]

Okay, the beat off a lea shore might have been a but dramatic, but point still stands that i cannot get a close hauled sheet angle.

@differentroads have fun in a blow! I think low friction rings would work. Vendee boats seem covered in them.

@scottie not sure my coach roof is reinforced. Plus Starlight 35/39s have halyard covers in key areas next to the mast.

 

[TernVI]

A strom jib does not need to sheet particularly close.
If you are heading 45 degrees off the true wind, doing 5 or 6 knots into a 25 knot wind, it's an exercise for the reader to see that the apparent wind is not shifted ever so far forwards.
Best thing is to get out and try it, you can use a karabiner or similar to exeriment with Barber haulers.
You can also vary things by adjusting the tack height above the deck
It will depend how the jib is cut and how it works with the reefed main.
You'll want to keep the jib flat, but probably with some twist.
Maybe it wants to err on the side of slightly over sheeted, so that it does not flog every time a wave luffs you?
If the jib is really small compared to the triple reefed main, it may be more about balancing the rig than getting actual power from the jib?
Yet you may want to bear off and retain control of the jib.
I'd be interested in others' opinions on these points, I tend to leave the boat in harbour and the storm jib in the bag as much as I can above F7!

 

[gregcope]

@TernVI Agree on those points. I cannot see how the storm jib would sheet in much closer than a close(ish) reach.

It is quite small on a Starlight 35, bright orange, high cut. I have only every hoisted it once, in Bembridge on a sunny day!

 

[jwilson]

Obviously I can't see the exact geometry of your Starlight, but I have used a storm jib in earnest in extreme condtions in a similarly fastish boat of similar size. I disagree with those who says a storm jib or (or trysail for that matter) has to be ultra-flat, you need to develop power to use from as small a sail area as you can use, and that means not pointing that high. A bar-tight flat jib sheeted close in stalls easily and develops less power to overcome the leeway-producing windage of the mast, hull and possibly also a rolled genoa these days.

Even if you are averaging 60-80 degrees off wind (and it will not be a straight course by any means as you are being thrown about by the seas and probably luffing into bigger breakers) you are still just making ground to windward overall despite a lot of leeway.

 

[flaming]

Hi All,

I have a starlight 35 with an inner forestay and storm jib. Hoisting for practice once I could not see where to lead the sheets too. Running them to the Genoa tracks seemed to give a very wide sheet angle/gap. I would have thought to beat off a lea shore one would want a tighter sheet angle.

I believe I have seen yachts with a short inner track next to the mast on the coat roof. This seems expense to retrofit.

Would some adjustable barber haulers made of HMPE/low friction rings connected to the mast base work just as well? I see these increasingly fitted to modern, usually French, yachts to adjust the sheeting angle instead of a track.

Would seem like a cheapish solution.

Thoughts?

I would be surprised if you found the sheeting to be too wide in practice. Boats that use barber haulers only tend to use them on the lighter jibs. Certainly by the time we're on the number 3 we're not inhauling.

As mentioned we use barber haulers on our jibs as a matter of routine. I'm not sure I'd want a storm jib sheet to be lead through one. The thought of the damage that a LFR could do powered by a flogging storm jib sheet in real storm jib conditions is scary.

If you put it up in breezy conditions and really found you couldn't point I'd look at how to fix a single strong block rather than using barber haulers. If you really can't get that geometry right, then try and keep any barber hauler on a very short lead, and definitely, definitely ensure that it is not possible for it to hit a window.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

A track is only required for adjusting the sheeting angle to correspond to how much the genoa is furled (or which hank-on sail is in use). A storm jib will only require one sheeting position as it does not adjust. all that is really required is a padeye on the coachroof to which you can attach suitable blocks. My advice would be to initially sheet it through the normal genoa cars at their most forward position, then rig temporary barber haulers to find out how much further inboard it needs to be, Then you can deduce where you might locate the padeyes. Bear in mind that you will want to set the storm jib low down, so as to keep the Centre of Effort low enough to keep heeling to a minimum, but not low enough to be engulfed by green water breaking across the deck.

 

[differentroads]

Okay, the beat off a lea shore might have been a but dramatic, but point still stands that i cannot get a close hauled sheet angle.

@differentroads have fun in a blow! I think low friction rings would work. Vendee boats seem covered in them...

I'm having lunch with a friend he's agreed to give it a go. Mind you, we're on the brandy now so it might be a bit of bravado! I'll try to remember to post on here how it goes if we get a suitable wind in December (we are lucky to have deep sheltered water in a westerly gale.) I have a couple of LFRs on strops and 10mm eyebolts at the foot of the mast. My boat is 10m, so could be a comparable result.
Although, if someone has experience of pulling a storm jib in close hauled using a barber hauler in 35kn+ feel free to step in and save me from myself!

 

[neil_s]

I do have a second set of sheet tracks for the inner forestay - I can set the number 2 jib on it as well as the storm jib. It's not the best set-up, because you need to sheet inside the cap shrouds - not ideal in heavy weather. Barber haulers might be the better way to go.

 

[jwilson]

I concur with Flaming on ".... I'm not sure I'd want a storm jib sheet to be lead through [a barber hauler]. The thought of the damage that a LFR could do powered by a flogging storm jib sheet in real storm jib conditions is scary.

Also as I said above I don't believe you need a tight sheeting angle. If you really can't live with sheeting to a normal genoa car put a very strongly backed padeye with a very strong block with a spring-type retainer to stop it hammering the deck too much if the sheet flogs.

 

[TernVI]

A track is only required for adjusting the sheeting angle to correspond to how much the genoa is furled (or which hank-on sail is in use). A storm jib will only require one sheeting position as it does not adjust. ...

I don't entirely agree.
If you are not beating, you may want to move the car out or forwards to keep the upper leach under control without oversheeting the bottom half too much.
Also tracks are good at spreading the load and avoid having a single sheeting position inevitably in the wrong place.

 

[TernVI]

..... I disagree with those who says a storm jib or (or trysail for that matter) has to be ultra-flat, you need to develop power to use from as small a sail area as you can use, and that means not pointing that high. A bar-tight flat jib sheeted close in stalls easily.......

Fair comment.
It would be more useful if we could say we want 'x-amount of camber in a storm jib' rather than vague terms like flat or baggy.
I would stick my neck out and say maybe 5 to 8 % depth to chord, when actually powered up.
But I'm saying that to encourage people to provide better numbers not because I swear by those numbers.

I think we also want some twist. Maybe 2/3 height it's wanting to be 5 degrees further out than at 1/3 height ?
Again I just put those numbers out there to seek other opinions.

Bearing in mind we are probably talking about a soft (albeit heavy) dacron sail which will be a different shape in F7 than it is in F4, let alone in the loft?

Good point that a very flat sail sheeted right in stalls easily. When it's really rough, helming becomes less acurate and as much about aiming around the bigger lumps of water as sailing precisely to the sail trim. The set of the jib needs to be forgiving, a very wide 'groove' so to speak. Which means what draft there is fairly forwards in the sail?

Unfortunately some 'storm jibs' are designed to tick the boxes of Small, Strong, and Orange rather than being the finest bit of aerodynamics.
And I'm sure a lot of us have been on boats where the storm jib is only 'orange' in terms of rust stains?

It might be worth taking a step back and considering whether we are talking about a 'real storm jib' a 'heavy weather jib' or indeed a 'proper working jib'?

 

[gregcope]

I'm having lunch with a friend he's agreed to give it a go. Mind you, we're on the brandy now so it might be a bit of bravado! I'll try to remember to post on here how it goes if we get a suitable wind in December (we are lucky to have deep sheltered water in a westerly gale.) I have a couple of LFRs on strops and 10mm eyebolts at the foot of the mast. My boat is 10m, so could be a comparable result.
Although, if someone has experience of pulling a storm jib in close hauled using a barber hauler in 35kn+ feel free to step in and save me from myself!

Sounds like the type of lunch I should be doing more often!

I think others are stepping in, so have more of those lunches!

 

[gregcope]

I concur with Flaming on ".... I'm not sure I'd want a storm jib sheet to be lead through [a barber hauler]. The thought of the damage that a LFR could do powered by a flogging storm jib sheet in real storm jib conditions is scary.

Also as I said above I don't believe you need a tight sheeting angle. If you really can't live with sheeting to a normal genoa car put a very strongly backed padeye with a very strong block with a spring-type retainer to stop it hammering the deck too much if the sheet flogs.

Good idea. Not thought of a padeye!

 

[gregcope]

Fair comment.
It would be more useful if we could say we want 'x-amount of camber in a storm jib' rather than vague terms like flat or baggy.
I would stick my neck out and say maybe 5 to 8 % depth to chord, when actually powered up.
But I'm saying that to encourage people to provide better numbers not because I swear by those numbers.

I think we also want some twist. Maybe 2/3 height it's wanting to be 5 degrees further out than at 1/3 height ?
Again I just put those numbers out there to seek other opinions.

Bearing in mind we are probably talking about a soft (albeit heavy) dacron sail which will be a different shape in F7 than it is in F4, let alone in the loft?

Good point that a very flat sail sheeted right in stalls easily. When it's really rough, helming becomes less acurate and as much about aiming around the bigger lumps of water as sailing precisely to the sail trim. The set of the jib needs to be forgiving, a very wide 'groove' so to speak. Which means what draft there is fairly forwards in the sail?

Unfortunately some 'storm jibs' are designed to tick the boxes of Small, Strong, and Orange rather than being the finest bit of aerodynamics.
And I'm sure a lot of us have been on boats where the storm jib is only 'orange' in terms of rust stains?

It might be worth taking a step back and considering whether we are talking about a 'real storm jib' a 'heavy weather jib' or indeed a 'proper working jib'?

Good idea on being a bit more scientific on the approach and measuring.

Mine was an option the original owner brought to go with the detachable inner forestay. It is small (compared to the genoa), heavy dracon and orange material, with a few rust stains! I would assume its intended to be a 'real storm job'.

I cannot see how to sheet it without using the existing cars and removing the roller reefing genoa sheets.

When back on boat and mast is up, I will re hoist it and take more photos of the sheet angle/slot.

 

[michael_w]

My boat is fitted with second set of jib cars for the heavy weather sails, plus another set of sheets. You are unlikely to be able to point very high under gale conditions.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

Two separate points.

Is the jib definitely cut for the inner forestay? You should know when you try it because you may find it difficult to get any foot tension if it wasn't meant to be on the inner. This came to mind when I was thinking you'd possible get a better lateral sheeting angle with it on the forestay - even though from a sail plan balance pov it's not ideal.

I've used a storm jib a few times, and with a storm trysail a couple of times. The trysail sheeted down to the spi sheet turning blocks, and so having a close sheeted jib wouldn't have been of any value. Having said that - if you do need to add hardware I'd agree that a track is the better option.

 

[GHA]

The thought of the damage that a LFR could do powered by a flogging storm jib sheet in real storm jib conditions is scary.

In what way scary?

I've done similar , ditched the staysail track and gone for a small LFR to adjust the sheet lead. Which will mean something small about the weight of a soft shackle flogging close to the deck though yet to try it in real anger with lots of wind.
Not ideal but not really the scariest thing on a boat in a load of wind. LFRs are very light so very little energy .

And a lot less blood than the toe smashing block on deck which it replaced! ?