Sterling alt. cont. doesn't control float V, does Adverc or others?

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Sterling alt. cont. doesn\'t control float V, does Adverc or others?

I have just learned from another poster who has just spoken with Sterling that their 'advanced' regulator controllers do not control the float voltage. Apparently[ QUOTE ]
Charles Sterling: "The alternator regulator was originally specd. to do the job of holding a float charge at an appropriate voltage, so why go lower? "

[/ QUOTE ]


to which one can reasonably add[ QUOTE ]
Lemain: "If the alternator regulator was originally specd. to do the job of charging at an appropriate voltage, why buy a Sterling regulator?"

[/ QUOTE ]


Does anyone know if the ADVERC or other alternator controller will provide a proper three/four stage charge cycle? As far as I am concerned, this makes the Sterling regulator unsuitable for cruising yachts - weekend use, yes, but distance cruising running the engine for more than 8 or 12 hours particularly in warm climates requires that the end of charge voltage falls back to below 14V, preferably around 13.6V, or water will be lost, gels and AGMs will out-gas and fail once their O/H re-combining catalysts fail (which they do in time).
 

alan

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Re: Sterling alt. cont. doesn\'t control float V, does Adverc or others?

From the Adverc web-site, technical information:

Q11: Do I need to worry about high voltages affecting sensitive equipment?

A11: No. ADVERC ‘cycles’ between 14.0 and 14.4v at the batteries (27.5v and 28.5v for 24v electrical systems). These voltages are well within the scope of virtually all sensitive navigation and other equipment, unlike BOOSTERS which can deliver voltages in excess of 15.5 volts.


Not sure if that's the full story but all I could find quickly.
Alan.
 

alan

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Re: Sterling alt. cont. doesn\'t control float V, does Adverc or others?

Reply #2:

Also found this:

The underlying principle is that batteries should be charged fully, quickly, safely and without damage to batteries and alternator. This is achieved, firstly, by cycling the battery voltages to an established programme, at a nominal 14.0-14.4v (12v systems) or 27.5-28.5v (24v systems).

The cycling programme is normally: 5 minutes @ 14.0 volts, followed by 15 minutes @ 14.4 volts. After four 20 minute cycles, there is a 'rest period' of up to 40 minutes i.e. at the lower voltage, depending on the battery state-of-charge and electrical duty-cycle.


Alan.
 
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Anonymous

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Re: Sterling alt. cont. doesn\'t control float V, does Adverc or others?

Alan, Many thanks for that input. That's all good stuff and I would agree with it in so far as it goes. But once the batteries are fully charged the volts need to fall back. This doesn't worry people who are going out for a few hours, but long engine run times cause a major problem.

David
 
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Anonymous

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Re: Sterling alt. cont. doesn\'t control float V, does Adverc or others?

Alan, Of course, if the Adverc can cut the volts back to 14.0V when the original alternator regulator is set to 14.6V then it must have some means of cutting back the volts - unless we are back to putting diodes in the output? I will do some searching later on.
 

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Re: Sterling alt. cont. doesn\'t control float V, does Adverc or others?

Hi Lemain,

I have had an Adverc for many years and the charging cycles indicated earlier are broadly correct, although when the 'rest' period starts the voltage (on mine anyway) drops back to 13.2v - 13.5v and sometimes lower.

I think I'm right in saying ('cos I don't monitor it much after so many years of excellent troublefree service) that once the batteries are fully charged after perhaps several cycles, the 'ambient' charge rate, is around 14.0v - 14.2v.

We cruised the Med/Caribbean for almost ten years and never needed to replace the batteries, so I guess the system (Adverc controller/Pulstronic monitor/AC Delco m/f batteries/solar panels/Aqua4gen/Rutland 913) is correct - for us anyway.
 

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Re: Sterling alt. cont. doesn\'t control float V, does Adverc or others?

What about the Balmar?

Look at their product guide here: http://www.balmar.net/PDF/2005balmarbook.pdf

Page 7 shows their different types of regulator, and their "Deluxe Max Charge Multi Stage Regulator" can have its float voltage and time manually adjusted (amongst a multitude of other adjustments!)

Just an idea (haven't looked at costs yet!)

Jonny
 

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Re: Sterling alt. cont. doesn\'t control float V, does Adverc or others?

Hi Lemain,

Just thinking about this a bit more, I seem to recall the charge rate as hanging around the 13.2v -13.5 volt most of the time when we spent five months or so in the French Canals last year.

Of course, the batteries had a the usual big boost in the early cycles each morning to replenish them after the overnight use, but thereafter dropped back to the lower voltages.

Like you, we often motored for hours in the Med. and the batteries never got anywhere near overcharging, and that's with maintenance-free batteries.

I'd have a chat/email Trevor Scarrat (if he's still running Adverc) and get their advice.
 
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Re: Sterling alt. cont. doesn\'t control float V, does Adverc or others?

Hi Jerry, Yes, the low 13s is ideal in warm weather. Unfortunately I fitted my old Sterling believing it to be a regulator and it seems not to be. I can check on the Adverc site, but do you remember whether the wiring is one single wire from the alternator (i.e. the field control output) or whether you have to wire both of the brushes out? I have done mine so that only the one wire comes out and to make that control down to 13.5V it will need to sink current (around 2A).
 

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Re: Sterling alt. cont. doesn\'t control float V, does Adverc or others?

The Merlin AMS unit also does 4 stage charging.

'if bulk charge is required the AMS will slowly ramp up the voltage over 1 min to reduce wear on drive belts will continue to charge for 18 mins then reduce to float voltage to rest the battery for 3 mins then back to the bulk charge cycle. This is repeated 6 times then the voltage is reduced slowly to equalise the battery charge.
...the battery is then monitored until the voltage drops to 12.6 volts and bulk charge will be resumed'

I have this unit and it 'does exactly what it says on the tin'. I am very pleased with it.

By the way ( re the amateur radio licence problem) I got my user id back from ofcom, tried to log in and got invalid name and password! got them to send me a new password still no joy!! Will now try phoning to see what their problem is . I will keep you posted.
 

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Re: Sterling alt. cont. doesn\'t control float V, does Adverc or others?

I run one of the older TWC units and don't get gassing or overheat problems, or at least none I have noticed. There is a temperature sensor with sits in with the battery bank.

The engine runs for many hours either on the river or down to the sea.
 

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Re: Sterling alt. cont. doesn\'t control float V, does Adverc or others?

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Jerry, Yes, the low 13s is ideal in warm weather. Unfortunately I fitted my old Sterling believing it to be a regulator and it seems not to be. I can check on the Adverc site, but do you remember whether the wiring is one single wire from the alternator (i.e. the field control output) or whether you have to wire both of the brushes out? I have done mine so that only the one wire comes out and to make that control down to 13.5V it will need to sink current (around 2A).

[/ QUOTE ]

Lemain, I do not have the latest version and mine has a single wire from the alternators regulator. This is connected to the Adverc wiring loom and controls the voltage to the batteries via the temperature sensor and the battery sensing circuitry. I understand the latest version uses the original (unwired) regulator so can't advise on this.
 
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Re: Sterling alt. cont. doesn\'t control float V, does Adverc or others?

jerry and wizard - that sounds promising in that single wire control is possible.

As I see it the problem is that to control below the alternator preset you need to shunt current from the regulator - ultimately shorting it. Do we know whether these regulators (in my case the Bosch) will shut itself down or fold-back, or might it overload? I have assumed that since Sterling did it this way it must be OK, as there are thousands out there and presumably they did tests, and checked the theory.

Now we learn that Sterling don't even attempt to control the float voltage this raises the question whether if we shunt current from the output of the regulator will we possibly overload it? Obviously it will 'work', that's a no-brainer, but might the regulator fail in service?

Just to be clear, the wiring a la Sterling simply takes out the wire connected from the internal regulator to the brush, so you can leave it open (i.e. it does nothing) or you can shunt, or force it high. Thinking aloud, clearly you can force it high so does that suggest that you can shunt it as well? Do we know how your Adverc does it, Jerry?

Many thanks for your help, guys. Much appreciated /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 

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Re: Sterling alt. cont. doesn\'t control float V, does Adverc or others?

Sterling's answer seems correct to me. The original alternator controller was designed to allow the alternator to run continuously without damage and to prevent overcharging the battery, i.e. float charge. The reason why you buy Sterling or Adverc is to get a quicker recharge rate and to ensure that the batterries get a full charge, say 95% charged instead of the 70% you can exepct with the standard regulator. So sterling are saying that when the battery is fully charged we let the original controller take over. I dont see a problem with that.
 
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Re: Sterling alt. cont. doesn\'t control float V, does Adverc or others?

[ QUOTE ]
The original alternator controller was designed to allow the alternator to run continuously without damage and to prevent overcharging the battery

[/ QUOTE ]

The original Bosch alternator is specified to regulate to 14.5 +/- 0.3V. Are you telling us that 14.8V is an appropriate voltage for any lead acid battery continuously in all temperatures? No, the correct float voltage is the mid 13s and if you keep charging your batteries in the mid 14s you will use a huge amount of water if you are lucky enough to have flooded, or wreck the batteries if you have sealed.

Of course, only a small minority of yachts ever spend many hours at sea under power. Those that do will have big problems. My yacht had been round the world and did nearly 3000 engine hours in the process. There is evidence that one set of batteries (almost certainly flooded) boiled and leaked and when I bought the boat (still only 5 years old) the new-ish highly expensive gel batteries were shot, utterly shot. The alternator is charging at 14.6V - that is in spec for the alternator, but kills batteries.
 

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Internal vs external regulation...

True multi-stage "smart" regulators such as the Balmar ARS-5 and Ample Power SAR-V3 are designed to be used with externally-regulated alternators. Most specialist high-output alternators (Balmar, etc) require an external regulator. As a result, these smart regulators can control the float voltage.

Products such as the Sterling and Adverc regulators are add-on boosters which can increase the output voltage of a standard internally-regulated alternator. They can't decrease the output voltage, so if the internal regulator is set at 14.0V, that's the lowest float voltage you'll get. These regulators have been designed specifically to address the fact that replacing a significant amount of charge takes a long time with the alternator's standard regulator.

Most people who fit a Sterling or Adverc regulator are just using it with their standard-fit internally-regulated alternator, and find that the improved charge efficiency is worthwhile. Most people won't have a problem with extended charging at 14.0V (after all, it's no different from the conditions experienced by a car battery).

The Adverc regulator is a very simple device and just cycles the voltage - although it does include a battery temperature sensor so it can adjust the voltage accordingly. Despite all the claims, I've never been too sure what the Sterling actually does, but I think it just boosts the alternator output to 14.4/14.8V (according to battery type) for a given period, then reverts to "float" ie whatever the internal regulator is set at.

If you want true multi-stage alternator regulation, get a proper "smart" regulator and disable your alternator's internal regulator.
 

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Re: Sterling alt. cont. doesn\'t control float V, does Adverc or others

Not having space in our N39 for a independent generator (lucky you with an N42!) I've just upgraded our 12v & 240v systems. I've gone all Balmar on 12v generation - 120A High Output Alternator (HOA) with Balmar Maxcharge V regulator. It is a four stage charging pattern (Bulk, Absorption, Float and finally low float). Only just fitted so still in testing stage but does seem to do as it says on the tin. Float (13.7v) goes to low float (13.2v) if after a set period there is no load on the batteries. The Balmar regulator can be configured by battery technology so as not to overcharge/undercharge. The regulator also allows ramp up (no load on engine start and also saves belts) as well as manual intervention to halve or totally negate alternator output. The idea being that a 120 A HOA draws 4hp (posssibly 5hp) and there might be times when you'd prefer this effort driving the prop. (Not such an issue with a large engined Nauticat). The Balmar regulator also senses battery and alternator temperature and regulates alternator output to best manage the circumstances.

I've removed an Adverc regulator as I wanted an end to end "mated" system so as to best preserve a heavy investment in 510AH of AGM battery capacity (the most expensive part of the entire system!)

I've also gone the whole hog and added a Victron combi charger/inverter (which has a PC link for tailored charger/inverter configuration). This choice was driven by the need for a decent 240v supply away from the marina (laptop et al), a decent charger to match the batteries and - most importantly of all - the shoreside load balancing functionality.

rob
 
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Anonymous

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Re: Internal vs external regulation...

I was fast coming to that conclusion myself - I have been badly mislead. But I have taken this from Sterling's website just now...

[ QUOTE ]
Every one in the power game recognises that the best battery charger you can buy is a 3 step constant current charger. These have superseded the old constant voltage chargers, The Sterling regulator converts your alternator from an old constant voltage alternator to a modern constant current battery sensed charging alternator.

<span style="color:red">Charges to 4 step constant current charging curves.All good battery chargers are constant current 3 -4 step. This is recognized as the best charging type curves. The Sterling Advanced Regulator converts your old fashion constant voltage alternator into a modern 4 step constant current battery charger, its that simple.</span>

[/ QUOTE ]

What is that supposed to mean, I wonder?
 
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Anonymous

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Re: Sterling alt. cont. doesn\'t control float V, does Adverc or others

Rob, without doubt you have made the right choice. I am rather annoyed with myself for falling into this trap especially as several people told me that they did not believe the Sterling would regulate down. I shall have to live with it now and just avoid running the engine for too long until I can find some way to modify it. I don't feel like spending a fortune on it, and will try to find a way to bend what I have got.

I really need to find out what would happen to the internal regulator if I shunt the output. In all probability it is short circuit protected in which case it is a doddle to sort but I want to confirm that before trying it.
 

pvb

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Re: Internal vs external regulation...

[ QUOTE ]
What is that supposed to mean, I wonder?

[/ QUOTE ]Oh, I'm sure it's just a slip of the tongue! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Mr Sterling seems to believe that if you put enough words in, people will give up reading it and just buy the products regardless.

If you look at the Sterling brochure, there's a little graph of the 4-step charging process. Buried in there, there's the fact that his alternator regulators (shown as "alt/boosters") float at 14.0V.
sterlinggraph.jpg
 
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