yossy
Member
Input much appreciated. (Warning long post.) I have made efforts to describe clearly and effective the relevant facts and circumstances to the problem, so that a skilled mechanic can help me troubleshoot and analyze the situation.
Symptoms and sequence of events. What are likely causes?
The Starter won’t turn. My MAN mechanic believes the main problem and cause is related to the Starter. I want to rule out that there could be something else. The reason for that is that removing and reinstalling the Starter is extremely difficult on my port engine as the engine is mounted/fitted extremely tight to the port side of the boat. It might even require lifting the engine out of the boat, which is a major work. Therefore I want to be close to 100% that there could not be anything else causing the problems/symptoms the boat/engine has.
The current situation is that there is no electricity/power to the port side engine. When I borrow electricity from the starboard system I can here a ”clicking” sound, but the Starter wont turn. I believe it is the ”starter solenoid” making the clicking sound.
But let me start from the beginning. The boat, Princess V55, is equipped with twin MAN 2848 le 403 year 1999 v8 800hp.
- We are out on the sea. Boat is running nicely. I stop the boat for a little while and take a swim. I start the boat. I drive a bit at low speed, I take a look at instruments and it seems port engine has stopped. It turns out it is running but all instruments/indicators connected to the port engine is dead. The stop button doesn’t work either. However, the controls work. I can put it in neutral, put it in gear, give gas etc.
- I drive back and eventually have to stop the engine with the fuel cut off. (I later found out that I manually can press the ”stop solenoid” on the engine to stop the engine.)
- Something must have happened to the electricity system on the port engine. There is no power at the ignition key or the stop button at the helm, and I can not start the engine again.
- I try to start the engine with the ”start button” down in the engine room at the black control box. It is a ”start button” (not original) that connects terminals 30 and 50 and gives power direct to the start engine without the need of the ignition to be turned on. It does not work. (I have the same ”start button” fitted on my starboard engine)
- We identify that there is no voltage coming to the ”stop button” at the helm, nor to the ignition component (where the ignition key is put in) at the helm. It turns out these two cables originates from the same cable, and that it has no current/voltage.
- We use the power from the starboard engine and connect the corresponding starboard cable (up at the helm) to the port engine cable so that the stop button has power and also the ignition component.
- It works! The engine starts and everything works as it should.
- A few days later when I try to start the port engine it won’t start. The Starter turns but the engine won’t start.
- It turns out there was voltage over the ”stop solenoid ” which activates it, in the same way it is activated when you press the ”stop” button at the helm. When the stop solenoid is activated it shuts off diesel to the engine. We disconnected the stop solenoid. With no voltage over it it opened and the engine starts.
- The weird thing is that a voltage was over the stop solenoid when that should only happen when you press the stop button at the helm. Something is leaking voltage to the stop solenoid? What could cause that? Could it be related to the problem of no current going to the stop button and the ignition component?
- For a few weeks I use the boat like this. I take the power from the starboard engine so that the boat can start. And I stop the boat manually by pushing the ”stop solenoid” until the engine stops. (I have connected the cable that provides the current to the ignition and to the stop button, at the helm, with the corresponding cable at the port engine. I have put in a 10A fuse inbetween for safety.)
- Then a week later I get a few more weird symptoms. The ignition on the port engine seems to be turned on without it being turned on. Most instruments that are activated when the ignition is turned on gets activated without the ignition being turned on. It is similar to the problem with the ”stop solenoid” getting current without the ”stop button” being pressed. Something is leaking voltage to the instruments. The instruments/components that gets power that shouldn't get power are the tank meter, the control head/levers, the engine fan. The voltmeter is not activated though, and only gets activated after the ignition is turned on.
- This is a bit annoying but does not really impact the starting and driving of the boat. I just have to shut off the main power switch to the engines when I’m not about to drive the boat.
- Then after another week of the boat working well, outside of the problems/symptoms described above, the Starter will suddenly not turn at all when I want to start the boat. There is only a ”click sound” when start button is pressed. It is the same when using the ”start button” down in the engine room.
- Down in the engine room, at the black control box, when we measure current between plint (terminal) 30 and 50, when green button is pressed, it shows 13 amperes going through the circuit. It is the same for port and starboard engine. So it seems there is current going to the Starter as it should, but it wont turn, just click.
- This is what the Troubleshooting guide says, Starter turns over engine only slowly or not at all: Possible causes:
o Batteries. Checked. Same battery bank as for starboard engine and starboard engine works fine.
o Crank gear blocked. Checked. Mechanic checked with tool and it could move/turn.
o Starter solenoid switch sticks (clicks)/defective, cable connection loose or damaged. Not checked. As described in the beginning it is very difficult to get to it. You can hear the ”click”. But I guess that could happen without it being faulty? E.g if the batteries are too low there can be a click sound? Could something else cause it to click without it being faulty? Secondary consumers consuming to much Amperes so that it will click?
o Starter/starter interlock relay defective (carbon brushes worked loose/worn, winding defective, short to ground). Semi checked. We disconnected Interlock relay to rule out that is was faulty and interfered somehow. Made no difference. We did not replace starboard interlock relay with port interlock relay to make sure it works. Should we?
o Engine oil viscosity unsuitable, not suitable for ambient temperature, lubricating oil quality does not correspond to specifications. Not checked. Sounds very unlikely or?
o Most probable!!! According to troubleshooting guide: Increased power intake due to defective secondary consumers such as hydraulic pumps, fan etc., power take-off engaged. Not checked. Power take-off engaged?? What does that mean? I can see there is a power take-off in the manual for the hydraulic pump, and one for the raw water pump. Is this relevant for me, do they need to be checked? Are there other power take-offs that can be engaged? Could ”check secondary consumers” also mean check generator? Generator has been acting a little weird showing very high voltage, more than 32, but it has been acting weird long before the symptoms described above started.
- We have also checked Ignition components, and stop and start components. We replaced starboard engines components with ports, and starboards system/engine worked. So we ruled out they are faulty.
- So from here where do we go? Is it clear that it is the Starter (or something close to the Starter, like the starter solenoid) that is faulty?
- Or are there other things we can/should check first?? As I described in the beginning removing and replacing the Starter is extremely difficult because there is no space around the Starter, so removing it and reinstalling it is very difficult.
- Symptoms that occurred first and that seems to me could be related to the starter only clicking.
o Power (voltage/current) to the port helm was suddenly lost. Why could that be? Is it related to the problem with the starter now clicking? Could it be a bad cable, bad ground, that has gotten worse, and in the beginning it worked with borrowing voltage from the starboard engine, but now it is so bad so that won’t help?
o What can cause voltage to leak to the ”stop solenoid” so that it had be disconnected??
o What can cause voltage to leak to some of the instruments that should only get voltage when ignition is turned on?? Engine fan, control head, fuel tank meter.
Help and input on this is much appreciated!! Any suggestions on MAN mechanics to talk to that are really good?
Rgds / Chris
Symptoms and sequence of events. What are likely causes?
The Starter won’t turn. My MAN mechanic believes the main problem and cause is related to the Starter. I want to rule out that there could be something else. The reason for that is that removing and reinstalling the Starter is extremely difficult on my port engine as the engine is mounted/fitted extremely tight to the port side of the boat. It might even require lifting the engine out of the boat, which is a major work. Therefore I want to be close to 100% that there could not be anything else causing the problems/symptoms the boat/engine has.
The current situation is that there is no electricity/power to the port side engine. When I borrow electricity from the starboard system I can here a ”clicking” sound, but the Starter wont turn. I believe it is the ”starter solenoid” making the clicking sound.
But let me start from the beginning. The boat, Princess V55, is equipped with twin MAN 2848 le 403 year 1999 v8 800hp.
- We are out on the sea. Boat is running nicely. I stop the boat for a little while and take a swim. I start the boat. I drive a bit at low speed, I take a look at instruments and it seems port engine has stopped. It turns out it is running but all instruments/indicators connected to the port engine is dead. The stop button doesn’t work either. However, the controls work. I can put it in neutral, put it in gear, give gas etc.
- I drive back and eventually have to stop the engine with the fuel cut off. (I later found out that I manually can press the ”stop solenoid” on the engine to stop the engine.)
- Something must have happened to the electricity system on the port engine. There is no power at the ignition key or the stop button at the helm, and I can not start the engine again.
- I try to start the engine with the ”start button” down in the engine room at the black control box. It is a ”start button” (not original) that connects terminals 30 and 50 and gives power direct to the start engine without the need of the ignition to be turned on. It does not work. (I have the same ”start button” fitted on my starboard engine)
- We identify that there is no voltage coming to the ”stop button” at the helm, nor to the ignition component (where the ignition key is put in) at the helm. It turns out these two cables originates from the same cable, and that it has no current/voltage.
- We use the power from the starboard engine and connect the corresponding starboard cable (up at the helm) to the port engine cable so that the stop button has power and also the ignition component.
- It works! The engine starts and everything works as it should.
- A few days later when I try to start the port engine it won’t start. The Starter turns but the engine won’t start.
- It turns out there was voltage over the ”stop solenoid ” which activates it, in the same way it is activated when you press the ”stop” button at the helm. When the stop solenoid is activated it shuts off diesel to the engine. We disconnected the stop solenoid. With no voltage over it it opened and the engine starts.
- The weird thing is that a voltage was over the stop solenoid when that should only happen when you press the stop button at the helm. Something is leaking voltage to the stop solenoid? What could cause that? Could it be related to the problem of no current going to the stop button and the ignition component?
- For a few weeks I use the boat like this. I take the power from the starboard engine so that the boat can start. And I stop the boat manually by pushing the ”stop solenoid” until the engine stops. (I have connected the cable that provides the current to the ignition and to the stop button, at the helm, with the corresponding cable at the port engine. I have put in a 10A fuse inbetween for safety.)
- Then a week later I get a few more weird symptoms. The ignition on the port engine seems to be turned on without it being turned on. Most instruments that are activated when the ignition is turned on gets activated without the ignition being turned on. It is similar to the problem with the ”stop solenoid” getting current without the ”stop button” being pressed. Something is leaking voltage to the instruments. The instruments/components that gets power that shouldn't get power are the tank meter, the control head/levers, the engine fan. The voltmeter is not activated though, and only gets activated after the ignition is turned on.
- This is a bit annoying but does not really impact the starting and driving of the boat. I just have to shut off the main power switch to the engines when I’m not about to drive the boat.
- Then after another week of the boat working well, outside of the problems/symptoms described above, the Starter will suddenly not turn at all when I want to start the boat. There is only a ”click sound” when start button is pressed. It is the same when using the ”start button” down in the engine room.
- Down in the engine room, at the black control box, when we measure current between plint (terminal) 30 and 50, when green button is pressed, it shows 13 amperes going through the circuit. It is the same for port and starboard engine. So it seems there is current going to the Starter as it should, but it wont turn, just click.
- This is what the Troubleshooting guide says, Starter turns over engine only slowly or not at all: Possible causes:
o Batteries. Checked. Same battery bank as for starboard engine and starboard engine works fine.
o Crank gear blocked. Checked. Mechanic checked with tool and it could move/turn.
o Starter solenoid switch sticks (clicks)/defective, cable connection loose or damaged. Not checked. As described in the beginning it is very difficult to get to it. You can hear the ”click”. But I guess that could happen without it being faulty? E.g if the batteries are too low there can be a click sound? Could something else cause it to click without it being faulty? Secondary consumers consuming to much Amperes so that it will click?
o Starter/starter interlock relay defective (carbon brushes worked loose/worn, winding defective, short to ground). Semi checked. We disconnected Interlock relay to rule out that is was faulty and interfered somehow. Made no difference. We did not replace starboard interlock relay with port interlock relay to make sure it works. Should we?
o Engine oil viscosity unsuitable, not suitable for ambient temperature, lubricating oil quality does not correspond to specifications. Not checked. Sounds very unlikely or?
o Most probable!!! According to troubleshooting guide: Increased power intake due to defective secondary consumers such as hydraulic pumps, fan etc., power take-off engaged. Not checked. Power take-off engaged?? What does that mean? I can see there is a power take-off in the manual for the hydraulic pump, and one for the raw water pump. Is this relevant for me, do they need to be checked? Are there other power take-offs that can be engaged? Could ”check secondary consumers” also mean check generator? Generator has been acting a little weird showing very high voltage, more than 32, but it has been acting weird long before the symptoms described above started.
- We have also checked Ignition components, and stop and start components. We replaced starboard engines components with ports, and starboards system/engine worked. So we ruled out they are faulty.
- So from here where do we go? Is it clear that it is the Starter (or something close to the Starter, like the starter solenoid) that is faulty?
- Or are there other things we can/should check first?? As I described in the beginning removing and replacing the Starter is extremely difficult because there is no space around the Starter, so removing it and reinstalling it is very difficult.
- Symptoms that occurred first and that seems to me could be related to the starter only clicking.
o Power (voltage/current) to the port helm was suddenly lost. Why could that be? Is it related to the problem with the starter now clicking? Could it be a bad cable, bad ground, that has gotten worse, and in the beginning it worked with borrowing voltage from the starboard engine, but now it is so bad so that won’t help?
o What can cause voltage to leak to the ”stop solenoid” so that it had be disconnected??
o What can cause voltage to leak to some of the instruments that should only get voltage when ignition is turned on?? Engine fan, control head, fuel tank meter.
Help and input on this is much appreciated!! Any suggestions on MAN mechanics to talk to that are really good?
Rgds / Chris
