standing rigging

[phanakapan]

the survey on the yacht I might buy strongly reccomends that the standing rigging be replaced as it seems to have been on for at least 15 years if not more. The broker suggests we pay for a man to test it electronicaly, and "it will probably be alright". How often should it be changed? why should we pay a further amount when we've already had a survey done? Would the cost of replacement be a suitable "bargaining point" or is it one of those things that just comes with the age of the boat- we are going to accept the small amount of osmosis it has, for example.

 

[Joe_Cole]

As far as I know most insurance companies would refuse to pay up if you were dismasted due to a failure of standing rigging which was 15 years old. You are right to not want to spend more. Your surveyor has given advice and, whether or not it suits the broker, you are fully entitled to use this as a negotiating point. "Good practice" (whatever that may be!) is that the rigging should be changed after 10years or so. This is probably well past its "sell by" date. Frankly I don't see why you should be paying for something that should have been done some time ago.

Tell the broker to get stuffed!

Regards


Joe

 

[david_e]

Re: Broker speak

I am afraid that having experienced the extremes of Broker talk this year that you have to discount most comments they make re surveyors. To suggest an electronic test is sufficient is nonsense, Joe Coles comments are correct. It is the surveyor who scotches or complicates many deals, however you have paid good money to protect your interests.

Look at this practically, if this is the only thing that needs to be done then the boat is quite good. The vendor will realise the situation and be expecting to react in some way or other, if they are sensible then they will make an allowance, the amount will depend upon how keen they are to sell. If there are any other recommendations in the survey the lump them all together and make your offer, if they reject it point out that you will give a limited amount of extra time for them to reconsider, point out that the next purchaser might not be so generous and it's winter etc etc. If you can not agree, then move on. On a recent deal that I eventually walked away from, I only revealed the parts of the survey that were detrimental. After the deal had gone flat I re-sold the whole survey to the dealer thereby getting some money back. Let us know the outcome.

 

[alanporter]

The standing rigging on my Renown is now twenty six years old. I took the masts down last season and went over the rigging and fittings carefully. Everything looked OK. I only sail it lightly in fair to moderate weather. Any advice ?

Alan Porter

 

[halcyon]

Passing point, is time or distance more important to rigging life, ie

Yacht a) has done 15 years pottering around in light winds locally.

Yacht b) was re-rigged 7 years ago in America, travelled to the West Indies, Gib and back to UK then laid up fo 4 years.

Which rigging would be better ?

Brian

 

[chriscallender]

Hi

I would suggest that if the rigging is more than 10 years old and you don't know its history then its definitely worth replacing it. I think that you will need to have it replaced to get insurance anyway.

I'm replacing the rigging on my boat this year which I know from receipts was replaced in 1992. Most probably it would last another 10 years but I don't know its history and I'd prefer to be able to trust it as close to 100% as possible.

If you are thinking of buying the boat, then it would be worth getting a quote to get an idea of the cost involved and then deducting this from any offer you might make. At this time of year the broker is probably glad of any offers he can get. At a guess its going to be ~400 pounds for a (say) 30 foot boat with single mast.

Chris

 

[clyst]

Re your request for advice-----Renew your rigging ASAP if its twenty-six years old you're lucky your mast hasn't kissed your ears already!! Sailing in light winds is no excuse what happens if your caught in a blow? Sorry chap you're life boat (or what ever you have in Canada) fodder if you're not careful.

Any way fair winds to!
Clyst.

 

[vyv_cox]

Insurance companies can only work with facts. They are unable, and unwilling, to differentiate between 26 year old rigging that has been lightly used and 10 year old on a charter boat used every day. They only know one measurement where rigging is concerned - time. If your mast fails and the rigging is more than about 15 years old, they will not pay out. This could be a very expensive loss, not just the mast, rigging, sails, masthead instrumentation, radar scanner(?) but in most cases some hull structural damage, maybe sprayhood, certainly pushpit, pulpit, guard wires, etc. It has been suggested that the 15 year period is reducing and I have seen 10 as the cut-off, with reduced compensation above that.

 

[tony_brighton]

As I recall stainless steel age hardens - hence the time limit. For peace of mind I'd replace rigging every 10 yrs. Last did it on my 11 yr old 26' Gibsea - it wasn't that expensive compared to losing the mast mid-channel.

 

[vyv_cox]

The failure mechanism is fatigue, nothing to do with age hardening. As soon as the rigging is holding the mast up it is vibrating to some extent and therefore accumulating cycles. Where everything has been constructed to perfection there will never be a problem, as rig design will put stress levels into the safe area. The nature of rigging manufacture is less than perfect, though, and there are stress concentrators at fittings, scratches, unfair leads, corrosion pits, etc. All greatly magnified by rigging that is excessively slack.

Rigging will never fail simply by being overstressed - the boat would deform first. It fails by progressive fatiguing of the individual cable strands, perhaps assisted by some pitting corrosion. So there is good justification for the age limit, bearing in mind that fatigue performance is a statistical phenomenon. All that the insurance companies are doing is moving a little further upstream on the life histogram.

 

[Guest]

The standing rigging on my 28 footer was replaced by the previous owner some time in the mid 90's.Unfortunately there is no documentation available to confirm this.Not unreasonably my insurance policy (Pantaenius) has a clause that says that in the event of a rigging failure the rigging will be assumed to be over 10 years old in the absence of direct evidence to the contrary.This triggers a penalty clause that would cost me 30% of the final bill for damage etc.I have decide to have my rigging replaced and have been quoted £397-94p (plus V.A.T.) by the rigger.I would imagine that all insurance companies have a similar clause with similar or greater penalties.Setting aside the cost considerations - the potential for serious injury or loss of life if the mast comes down must surely dictate that the rigging should be replaced at regular intervals i.e. every 10 years (and a record kept for insurance purposes.)

 

[Bodach na mara]

I lost a wire once, fortunately only in a 14 foot dinghy and escaped with only a ducking. The wire looked perfect before it broke.
I now have a Renown ketch and bought it five years ago with rigging of indeterminate age. I suspected that the rigging was original, that is about 21 years old at that time. At 28 years old yours should definately be renewed. As a precaution, I renewed all of mine, doing the job myself using Norseman terminals. As far as I remember, the total bill was £350 (which is about $c850). This price included a massive pair of wire cutters. The job was not hard and I took advantage of the fact that I could increase the length of certain parts which were only catching on the last few turns of the bottle screws.
The job is well worth doing if only for peace of mind. Dropping the mast on a Renown would give a bit more than a ducking

Ken Johnson

 

[FlyingSpud]

I had the same problem, and did, what seemed to me to be the sensible course of action. I asked the Insurance Company!

I said I had heard about the 10 years limit and asked if this was true. They said it was not, I then asked if they would deny liability on this alone and they said no. When I confirmed the insurance I wrote a letter confirming this to them and noted it in the proposal form.

I think they would be hard pressed to get out of it on that basis now.

I have to say that I shopped around for quotes, and all of them were the same on this point, so that would seem to cover the insurance point,

But of course it does not say if the mast is, or is not, more likely to fall down. One of the insurers, I can’t remember which, said the figures showed most rigging failures happen in the 6 MONTHS AFTER new rigging has been put up. This makes sense I suppose, as I understand that most rigging failures are where the attachments are fixed to the wire, and if they have not been done so well, then they are going to fail quite quickly. This tied in with my own experience - I re rigged my old boat, sold this summer, in Spring 2001. When it was surveyed this summer, one of the fittings was defective.

Having said that, there must be an age when it should come down, though I have no idea what it would be, though it does seem sensible that it has some connection with how hard the boat is pressed.

 

[alanporter]

Thank you everyone who has added their wisdom to my post on this subject. Guess what I am going to be doing this winter. Yes, renewing the rigging !.

Alan Porter

 

[LORDNELSON]

If you replace the rigging you will sleep more peacefully. When you replace it it is a good idea to look critically at the existing rigging layout and see if its design could be altered a little to make it more efficiently fit your proposed sail plan/s etc - maybe a backstay adjuster instead of a rigging screw etc., bearing in mind that you will not be likely to replace it for another 10 years!

 

[Spacewaist]

I once lost a mast on a Sigma33 half way across the Channel from Guernsey, in the middle of the eastbound shipping lane on a starlit night in a W4. Fatigue failure in a shroud terminal was the cause. Lost the whole rig, including the mainsail. (Out of interest, my first action was to put out a "Pan Pan" on VHF (10 years ago); my second was to wonder why I didnt get a response).

Despite the relatively benign conditions it (losing a mast) is an experience I never want to repeat - and recommend you try to avoid. Brook no opposition. Have the rig replaced - and reduce the price accordingly.

It rarely rains for longer than four hours........

 

[LadyInBed]

How old was the rig, what did the insurance company say about it and did they pay out???

 

[mhouse]

I am looking at a getting a boat with rod rigging does the same advise about changing it stand? The wire rigging on my present boat dates from 1979 and neither the insurance company or the survey say it needs changing.

 

[Spacewaist]

This is circa 1995. Insurer Bishop Skinner.

The standing rigging was replaced every five years (boat insured for racing). It was the shroud terminal deck plate fitting where the shroud joined the deck that failed rather than any of the standing rigging itself.

I lost mast, mainsail (recovered boom but scrapped on arrival), stanchions, damaged toe rail and topsides.

Bishop Skinner settled claim in full appart from some betterment in the mainsail. Very little discussion really.

It rarely rains for longer than four hours........

 

[alanporter]

I appreciate the valuable advice after my post yesterday. Does replacing the rigging mean just the wire and terminals, or the whole shooting match...clevis pins, turnbuckles (bottle screws), mast tangs, toggles, etc ? My boat is a ketch, so it is double trouble. Can I pass my hat round ????????

Alan Porter