st4000 wheel pilot

[Robin]

We inherited aRaymarine ST4000 +wheel pilot with our Oceanis 36CC but the wheel drive unit ( old black type) has just been buggered by one of the bozos cleaning the boat turning the wheel whilst the clutch was engaged on the wheel drive unit preventing the wheel from being turned. I would much prefer a below decks driven pilot like we used to have, but funds will not run to one of those. Mr Paymemuch the repair man here says no spares are available for the older black wheel units but that the new grey Mk11 drive will work and just go directly in it's place. Does anyone have the newer model raymarine pilot with the grey wheel drive? I would be interested to hear if the new version is any more robust or whatever before I spend my measly pension pittance on it. OK over here it costs under $600 but It would be nice if we could look forward to a slight improvement over the old one at least for our money. Does it run freely with the clutch disengaged too ( as in no drag on the wheel) ??

TIA

Robin.

 

[mainsail1]

I have had two ST4000 wheel pilots and in both cases the wheel drive unit proved to be naff within a couple of years. I would suggest that you save your money and go for a below decks version when funds allow - or do what I have done and go back to hand steering and a wind vane.

 

[GrahamD]

The st4000 I had on our boat when we bought it was not efficient, even though the wheelpilot component worked OK. We found it very difficult to set up and hold a course in any significant seaway, with the boat frequently making major and sudden course changes before slowly returning to course. We could never fix it is in the end replaced it with the Raymarine Evolution EV 100 wheelpilot for last season. We found that the selfsteering performance was transformed, coping with quite rough sea conditions, even downwind. If your pension can stretch this far, it may be worth getting something with far more advanced software and hardware. Time may prove that the wheelpilot component will not be adequately robust, but while it is working we are well pleased with it

 

[Robin]

I have had two ST4000 wheel pilots and in both cases the wheel drive unit proved to be naff within a couple of years. I would suggest that you save your money and go for a below decks version when funds allow - or do what I have done and go back to hand steering and a wind vane.

nice idea but 'saving' on a pension is not an option nor do I want a wind vane for the kind of sailing we do now, 2 old wrinklies mostly zig zagging, often under motor, in the ICW's narrow shallow channels, with occasional forays to the islands. I'm well aware of the failings of the St4000s as I too have had several of them, even had one as a spare for the 7000 below decks we had on our last UK boat. But they sell the Evolution 100 model now with a mk11 wheel drive unit and it is that unit I'm asking about because Raymarine say I can use it to directly replace my busted old version one, the electronics bits are still working fine.

 

[Tranona]

It is a lottery with the drives. I am on my third, the previous 2 having wrecked the gears after very little use. Eventually replaced under warranty, but even the third has been back to Raymarine, along with the new control box and had parts replaced. The weakness is the plastic gears, but they may now have changed them back to metal. I actually ended up with two complete units as the first failed between Sicily and Sardinia so I bought a complete SPX 5 there, which lasted until Majorca when the gears went again. eventually Raymarine replaced both, so I ended up with 2 complete sets. sold the older one and as far as I know that one is still working.

My new boat will have a Garmin autopilot.

 

[Robin]

It is a lottery with the drives. I am on my third, the previous 2 having wrecked the gears after very little use. Eventually replaced under warranty, but even the third has been back to Raymarine, along with the new control box and had parts replaced. The weakness is the plastic gears, but they may now have changed them back to metal. I actually ended up with two complete units as the first failed between Sicily and Sardinia so I bought a complete SPX 5 there, which lasted until Majorca when the gears went again. eventually Raymarine replaced both, so I ended up with 2 complete sets. sold the older one and as far as I know that one is still working.

My new boat will have a Garmin autopilot.

We had a Garmin on our liveaboard motor yacht and whilst it didn't break down it wasn't too good at holding a course. mind you a 25 ton displacement twin screw trawler with two small rudders is not an easy beast to controlwithout usingextra left or right engine power.

buying a complete new EV 100 is worth considering but that said we don't even need the pilot to be ultra efficient at course holding, just really to be there to 'hold it' for a bit when asked nicely. We don't do long trips theses days and don't do the rough stuff any more either, but the ICW is a winding road with shallow traps in abundance to catch the careless helm straying from the dead centre magenta road. the St4000s I had fell apart dropping plastic wheels everywhere, the gears were ok once i replaced the plastic ones with a metal one. The owner manual for the mk11 wheel drive of the EV 100shows it to have caged ball bearings not plastic wheels so hopefully an improvement. Our Benny is very light to steer and is well balanced under sail too, the in-mast main will help with that as well. plus the drive unit has a 2 year warranty extendable by 1or 2 more years for an extra fee if we choose to . . In view of the probable limited use we may give the new drive unit a whirl unless I decide to risk a divorce and get a complete new EV100 setup for the better software. I was particularly curious as to whether the mk11 drives put less drag on the wheel with the pilot disengaged, as II found the original Mk1 black ones always were quite draggy.

 

[Robin]

The st4000 I had on our boat when we bought it was not efficient, even though the wheelpilot component worked OK. We found it very difficult to set up and hold a course in any significant seaway, with the boat frequently making major and sudden course changes before slowly returning to course. We could never fix it is in the end replaced it with the Raymarine Evolution EV 100 wheelpilot for last season. We found that the selfsteering performance was transformed, coping with quite rough sea conditions, even downwind. If your pension can stretch this far, it may be worth getting something with far more advanced software and hardware. Time may prove that the wheelpilot component will not be adequately robust, but while it is working we are well pleased with it

Thanks Graham, is that still on 'Tom Boy' or did you trade up?

 

[Scillypete]

I've just received my st4000 mkII wheel drive unit back from Raymarine having been repaired under warranty, it lasted 6 months before packing up and having to be sent back. That drive unit replaced the previous one which managed to last 11 years according to the paperwork with the boat but no idea how hard it was used. It does create some stiffness in the steering, only noticed when it was off for repair as the wheel steering became so light to turn.
Both units had developed a short circuit in the motor drive according to the diagnosis from Raymarine.

 

[han34]

I have the later "grey" wheel pilot drive. It has worked faultlessly for several thousand miles. The last time was cross channel on Saturday and I left it for about twelve hours or so. However my boat weighs around six tones. The wheel steering is very light indeed and puts little strain on the drive. I think the weight of the steering, not the weight of the boat is what causes problems.

 

[GrahamD]

Thanks Graham, is that still on 'Tom Boy' or did you trade up?

We still have Tomboy, this is our 5th season and we have been steadily improving and updating her since we bought her. She suits us well, so I can't see us changing for some time. We're firmly in the MAB category, but we've put in quite a lot of effort to reduce the M component!

 

[cmedsailor]

Until some years ago I had the same wheel pilot (the black one) on my Beneteau 361. It was OK for motoring or sailing (especially upwind) in relatively calm waters but not adequate for any other point of sailing. In addition I was always afraid of the clutch disengaging (what a stupid thing). When it eventually died, like you I was thinking of replacing just the wheel drive with the new grey one (without the X5 computer thing and the new control head).
Considering the type of sailing I do (weekend 5-6 hour trips and sometimes offshore, 24+ hours non-stop, with the family; meaning singlehanded) I decided to buy a raymarine below deck type 1 linear drive pilot. Expensive of course but a completely different story as it can drive the boat in almost all conditions (OK, you still need to balance the boat otherwise it will consume lots of electricity and drive like crazy; luckily the B361/36cc hull is very easy to balance with the appropriate sail area out).
A friend of mine has the old ST4000+ control unit with the grey wheel pilot (not the X5 computer thing) on his Beneteau 361. As far as I know and have seen, it drives the boat just like the black older unit but the clutch seems to be better. It does run freely with the clutch disengaged. There is some noise due to some friction within the drive unit but nothing really worth paying attention.

 

[Robin]

We still have Tomboy, this is our 5th season and we have been steadily improving and updating her since we bought her. She suits us well, so I can't see us changing for some time. We're firmly in the MAB category, but we've put in quite a lot of effort to reduce the M component!

David Thomas designed sweet sailing boats so worth the effort for sure.

 

[Robin]

Until some years ago I had the same wheel pilot (the black one) on my Beneteau 361. It was OK for motoring or sailing (especially upwind) in relatively calm waters but not adequate for any other point of sailing. In addition I was always afraid of the clutch disengaging (what a stupid thing). When it eventually died, like you I was thinking of replacing just the wheel drive with the new grey one (without the X5 computer thing and the new control head).
Considering the type of sailing I do (weekend 5-6 hour trips and sometimes offshore, 24+ hours non-stop, with the family; meaning singlehanded) I decided to buy a raymarine below deck type 1 linear drive pilot. Expensive of course but a completely different story as it can drive the boat in almost all conditions (OK, you still need to balance the boat otherwise it will consume lots of electricity and drive like crazy; luckily the B361/36cc hull is very easy to balance with the appropriate sail area out).
A friend of mine has the old ST4000+ control unit with the grey wheel pilot (not the X5 computer thing) on his Beneteau 361. As far as I know and have seen, it drives the boat just like the black older unit but the clutch seems to be better. It does run freely with the clutch disengaged. There is some noise due to some friction within the drive unit but nothing really worth paying attention.

Thanks, very useful information. I think we may find it quite adequate for what we do nowadays.

 

[Robin]

I have the later "grey" wheel pilot drive. It has worked faultlessly for several thousand miles. The last time was cross channel on Saturday and I left it for about twelve hours or so. However my boat weighs around six tones. The wheel steering is very light indeed and puts little strain on the drive. I think the weight of the steering, not the weight of the boat is what causes problems.

Thanks, itsounds like it will work for us too, our steering is light also.

 

[Mrnotming]

If your autopilot head is the ST4000+ it will drive a cable box known as the Octopus Drive.Simrad make the complete outfit I think its AP10 or similar.
So I rigged this cable drive on a 48" cable, no bends, and it is connected to the rudder arm.It has its own compatible rudder reference unit.Canadian Metal Co make these drives.They sometimes come up on eBay.If you find the model with a fitting for a steering wheel you can ignore this fitting and install simply as a slave.You still have your manual steering if anything breaks.On a well balanced boat the loads are within bounds.My boat is transformed, as the original 4000+lacked a rudder reference unit.The motor driving the unit is a standard Radiospares motor 5A max draw.
Hope this helps.Advice from timbell@octopuseurope, found this guy to be very helpful, he sells autopilots in Spain.

 

[jwilson]

We inherited aRaymarine ST4000 +wheel pilot with our Oceanis 36CC but the wheel drive unit ( old black type) has just been buggered by one of the bozos cleaning the boat turning the wheel whilst the clutch was engaged on the wheel drive unit preventing the wheel from being turned. I would much prefer a below decks driven pilot like we used to have, but funds will not run to one of those. Mr Paymemuch the repair man here says no spares are available for the older black wheel units but that the new grey Mk11 drive will work and just go directly in it's place. Does anyone have the newer model raymarine pilot with the grey wheel drive? I would be interested to hear if the new version is any more robust or whatever before I spend my measly pension pittance on it. OK over here it costs under $600 but It would be nice if we could look forward to a slight improvement over the old one at least for our money. Does it run freely with the clutch disengaged too ( as in no drag on the wheel) ??

TIA

Robin.

 

[jwilson]

I think the fact that I have two ST4000 Mk II drives says it all - one to use and one to fix. Usually the fix is dismantle, clean, Maclube the nasty cheap plastic cam-wheels (totally contrary to Raymarine instructions), refit and readjust, but both have also had additional problems that needed new motor parts.

The old black models actually look rather better made.....

Probaby 7 out of 10 ST4000 Mk II users have a loop of shockcord fitted to hold the clutch lever in place. Adjustment is ultra-critical but if right you can have no drag on wheel when disengaged. Once worn a bit the (unofficial) Maclube helps. Once you get friction in the cam-wheels it does the famous ST4000 "auto-disengage" act..

It is so close to being a good bit of kit: a little more money on better materials and bearings and it would be excellent, for what it is, an economy autopilot. It won't keep a boat on course well in an awkward sea, but in light winds or motoring it is good value - even if I need to have two drives. I would not set off long-distance singlehanded with the ST4000 - I'd want a quadrant/ram setup.

 

[TQA]

What about a CPT http://www.cptautopilot.com/

Simple to fit and lots of grunt.

 

[Robin]

What about a CPT http://www.cptautopilot.com/

Simple to fit and lots of grunt.

HMmm, probably very good but it looks somewhat agricultural and is priced at a level where I would be looking to fit a below decks quadrant driven pilot from either Raymarine, because we had a couple of those a 6000, then a 7000, for many years and over 30000 miles on a 41 footer or even a Garmin, since we already have a full network of NMEA2000 Garmin kit on board

I think we will take the simplest and cheapest option of fitting the newer style wheel drive unit from an EV 100 Raymarine pilot which Raymarine tell me is a direct swap for the old 4000 one, even down to having the same plug/socket to connect up the existing cabling,the only slight difference being different style clamps, supplied with it, to fix it to the wheel spokes. Our boat weighs in at under 14000lbs and is light to steer, plus most of our cruising now will be in sheltered waters, aside from an occasional foray offshore to the Bahamas or up to Chesapeake maybe on the outside route. motoring or pulling out the sails occasionally in good conditions in the Ditch shouldn't overtax the pilot unduly and as I said earlier the basic requirement is simply to say to it 'hey you, hold this course for a bit whilst I drink my coffee or have a pee'. We have wound down somewhat since retiring 6 years ago and no longer race or cruise long distances nor seek out/enjoy the roughand windy stuff like we used to. Amazing what a stroke 3 years ago (me)and a semi permanent implanted data transmitting heart monitor (SWMBO) can do to make you calm down, smell the roses and be grateful to be still around and occasionally afloat under sail.:encouragement:

 

[Robin]

Re: st4000 wheel pilot Update

We have now ordered through the local Raymarine installing dealer a new EV100 mk11 grey wheel drive unit due from Raymarine In a few days and which said local dealer will installand test. Today however I removed the broken drive myself and opened it up. It seems like the internal drive belt has shredded and loose bits of it have got wound into the clutch operating mechanism The other bits like the plastic wheels etc that often break off are all still luckily intact. so in true Blue Peter/PBO fashion I trawled fleabay and found a supplier for a new D169 drive belt, the one fitted to the st4000 black models and no longer available from Raymarine. Hopefully I can install this new belt myself and reassemble the drive to use as an on board spare that, if needed, can be switched over relatively quickly if the new Mk11 drive goes tits up too down the line. However once again Dr Sodde intervened as, on removing the drive from the wheel, one of the plastic clamps that holds the drive unit to the wheel spokes broke in two. so now I have to test my gluing abilities and rely on the truthfulness of the glue maker's ads OR (plan B) trawl fleabay some more for the right sized wheel clamp fitting and spend a few more precious bucks The belt only cost about $20 and wheel clamps are up to $35 so not huge money but this is on top of the $7-$800 for the brand new drive just to have an old unit as a ready to go spare.

B.OA.T. = Break Out Another Thousand and that is what it looks like being all up. still and all at least it is not 'real' money only mickey mouse monopoly notes.:ambivalence:

My thanks to all who contributed and gave me helpful advice as always.:encouragement: