Gunfleet
New member
No doubt hey'll have some tit from the C&E wanting to see their VAT receipt too.
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SSB Radio - non EEC coded
- Thread starter BrendanChandler
- Start date
cpthook
New member
Using SSB for voice convos
hi John
I'm also a ham (passed RAE years ago and just now applying for a licence)
and interested in working MF and HF on board, both international marine
SSB (ITU) and the standard ham bands.
I have a number of questions for you:
- could I ask which make of aerial you used and where I can get hold of one?
(I've seen the Moonraker site but don't fancy ordering from Australia).
- did you use an ATU?
- how did you get on with grounding?
- have you tried an insulated backstay?
- I've seen some good "mobile" type antennas at www.hiqantennas.com
which could fit onto the pushpit. How do you reckon they'd perform?
There are hundreds of marine channels available on different SW bands. How does
one choose a particular band to place a call on? ie there appear to be
several calling channels. Is ship-to-ship SSB used much aronnd the UK, for
instance outside the normal range of VHF? I've looked on the Ofcom site
and can only find the protocol for using VHF channels.
Nick
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hi John
I'm also a ham (passed RAE years ago and just now applying for a licence)
and interested in working MF and HF on board, both international marine
SSB (ITU) and the standard ham bands.
I have a number of questions for you:
- could I ask which make of aerial you used and where I can get hold of one?
(I've seen the Moonraker site but don't fancy ordering from Australia).
- did you use an ATU?
- how did you get on with grounding?
- have you tried an insulated backstay?
- I've seen some good "mobile" type antennas at www.hiqantennas.com
which could fit onto the pushpit. How do you reckon they'd perform?
There are hundreds of marine channels available on different SW bands. How does
one choose a particular band to place a call on? ie there appear to be
several calling channels. Is ship-to-ship SSB used much aronnd the UK, for
instance outside the normal range of VHF? I've looked on the Ofcom site
and can only find the protocol for using VHF channels.
Nick
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MainlySteam
New member
Re: Using SSB for voice convos
Hi Nick
Your questions as follows:
1. I use a wire antenna (ordinary insulated multistrand sealed at ends to prevent water ingress) which runs from deck level to the upper spreaders and which is on a spectra rope halyard (is permanently hoisted, and spectra is necessary to avoid stretch in the halyard). Some say that one should keep the antenna right away from the rig but I have never found this a problem as on HF, even if you use the backstay or a whip (and a whip of minimum recommended 23 foot length is usually out of character on a boat less than about 70 foot) they are still close to the mast in terms of wavelength and so will be coupled to it on the sized yachts most of us own. One reason I did this is was to keep the antenna away from the cockpit and therefore the risk of rf burns and close exposure to the rf (our boat is also steel so the deck screens down below from exposure of crew and sensitive instrumentation, etc to the radiated rf - autopilots are often a problem in rf fields). Shakespeare USA do a good range of whip antennas and while I think in the UK you have to still order direct from the USA (a Google on Shakespeare antenna finds the site) they now have a distribution centre in UK. If you use a wire antenna, I find that using wire that is just big enough to stand the strain of tensioning with some residual strength is best - heavy wire is impossible to tension enough so that it does not flap around without very large forces and is also inclined to "sing" in the wind when pulled tight like a guitar string between a spreader and the deck.
2. I use an automatic ATU. I have used a 500 watt amplifier on board, in which case I used a manual ATU (another reason the antenna is by the rig, it comes through the deck directly from the ATU at the operating position). On a boat an automatic ATU is much easier. A manual ATU can only be used if the bottom of your antenna is adjacent to the operating position so that you can adjust it unless you have multiband antenna in which case you will be severely restricted to the frequencies the antenna is matched at. While many administrations allow manual tuners for marine radio, I would not recommend it as it severely complicates the readiness for making a distress call.
3. I use the steel hull as a ground. In my experience (and also view) the little porous grounding plates one can buy are inferior to a proper more extensive ground, but anything will do the job , just depends how good a job one wants and how keen you are. If you have a metal hull and the DC services are isolated from this ie the negative is not bonded to the hull, then you have to DC isolate the radio chassis/ATU ground from the hull (some radios are so isolated, but not many) in which case one has to put blocking capacitors in the ground from the ATU to the hull (and in any other ground from the radio itself). A number of high capacitance monolithic capacitors wired in parallel to give a total of 1 or 2 microfarads is sufficient - use a piece of unetched circuit board with a narrow cut out across the copper and solder the capacitors across the cutout.
4. Have not used an insulated backstay on our current boat as the backstay is bridled for the lower third of its length meaning the lower insulator would be a long way up in the air. The backstay is also grounded at both chainplates so running a line from the deck feed thru to the insulator position would mean running it parallel to the grounded part of the backstay for a long length resulting in coupling between them. Contrary to the opinion held by many yachtsmaen the backstay has no magical properties as an antenna at all, as it is just the same as a piece of wire held up by any other method.
5. Provided one has a reasonable ground I suspect that the antennas of the type you refer to would work as well as in a land installation. However, I would not myself use any antenna reliant on traps, coils etc on a sailboat unless they were completely encapsulated (and I think most if not all amateur antennas have that difficulty) to prevent salt entering.
I cannot comment on HF marine radio use around the UK as I am in New Zealand. However, I would be pretty confident that from a Yachtsman's point of view it would be minimal. For the shore stations they all advertise their working channels and the usual practice is to call them on the safety frequency (2182, 4125, etc kHz). A Google search on maritime radio nets give lists of marine and amateur frequencies usually used. For in UK waters and for a UK vessel I could not comment on what frequencies you may be authorised to use for intership communications - common intership frequencies here are 2456, 2638, 2012, 4146, 4417, 6224, 6227 kHz. This site <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.tidepool.com/~psn/hfcom.html>http://www.tidepool.com/~psn/hfcom.html</A> gives typical intership frequencies (select the menu item Primary Simplex Marine SSB Channels) but you may find that you have local restrictions.
Trust that is of some help
John
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Hi Nick
Your questions as follows:
1. I use a wire antenna (ordinary insulated multistrand sealed at ends to prevent water ingress) which runs from deck level to the upper spreaders and which is on a spectra rope halyard (is permanently hoisted, and spectra is necessary to avoid stretch in the halyard). Some say that one should keep the antenna right away from the rig but I have never found this a problem as on HF, even if you use the backstay or a whip (and a whip of minimum recommended 23 foot length is usually out of character on a boat less than about 70 foot) they are still close to the mast in terms of wavelength and so will be coupled to it on the sized yachts most of us own. One reason I did this is was to keep the antenna away from the cockpit and therefore the risk of rf burns and close exposure to the rf (our boat is also steel so the deck screens down below from exposure of crew and sensitive instrumentation, etc to the radiated rf - autopilots are often a problem in rf fields). Shakespeare USA do a good range of whip antennas and while I think in the UK you have to still order direct from the USA (a Google on Shakespeare antenna finds the site) they now have a distribution centre in UK. If you use a wire antenna, I find that using wire that is just big enough to stand the strain of tensioning with some residual strength is best - heavy wire is impossible to tension enough so that it does not flap around without very large forces and is also inclined to "sing" in the wind when pulled tight like a guitar string between a spreader and the deck.
2. I use an automatic ATU. I have used a 500 watt amplifier on board, in which case I used a manual ATU (another reason the antenna is by the rig, it comes through the deck directly from the ATU at the operating position). On a boat an automatic ATU is much easier. A manual ATU can only be used if the bottom of your antenna is adjacent to the operating position so that you can adjust it unless you have multiband antenna in which case you will be severely restricted to the frequencies the antenna is matched at. While many administrations allow manual tuners for marine radio, I would not recommend it as it severely complicates the readiness for making a distress call.
3. I use the steel hull as a ground. In my experience (and also view) the little porous grounding plates one can buy are inferior to a proper more extensive ground, but anything will do the job , just depends how good a job one wants and how keen you are. If you have a metal hull and the DC services are isolated from this ie the negative is not bonded to the hull, then you have to DC isolate the radio chassis/ATU ground from the hull (some radios are so isolated, but not many) in which case one has to put blocking capacitors in the ground from the ATU to the hull (and in any other ground from the radio itself). A number of high capacitance monolithic capacitors wired in parallel to give a total of 1 or 2 microfarads is sufficient - use a piece of unetched circuit board with a narrow cut out across the copper and solder the capacitors across the cutout.
4. Have not used an insulated backstay on our current boat as the backstay is bridled for the lower third of its length meaning the lower insulator would be a long way up in the air. The backstay is also grounded at both chainplates so running a line from the deck feed thru to the insulator position would mean running it parallel to the grounded part of the backstay for a long length resulting in coupling between them. Contrary to the opinion held by many yachtsmaen the backstay has no magical properties as an antenna at all, as it is just the same as a piece of wire held up by any other method.
5. Provided one has a reasonable ground I suspect that the antennas of the type you refer to would work as well as in a land installation. However, I would not myself use any antenna reliant on traps, coils etc on a sailboat unless they were completely encapsulated (and I think most if not all amateur antennas have that difficulty) to prevent salt entering.
I cannot comment on HF marine radio use around the UK as I am in New Zealand. However, I would be pretty confident that from a Yachtsman's point of view it would be minimal. For the shore stations they all advertise their working channels and the usual practice is to call them on the safety frequency (2182, 4125, etc kHz). A Google search on maritime radio nets give lists of marine and amateur frequencies usually used. For in UK waters and for a UK vessel I could not comment on what frequencies you may be authorised to use for intership communications - common intership frequencies here are 2456, 2638, 2012, 4146, 4417, 6224, 6227 kHz. This site <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.tidepool.com/~psn/hfcom.html>http://www.tidepool.com/~psn/hfcom.html</A> gives typical intership frequencies (select the menu item Primary Simplex Marine SSB Channels) but you may find that you have local restrictions.
Trust that is of some help
John
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Bergman
New member
On rights of entry it was the case that part of the license conditions were to allow access to duly authorised officers to inspect the station. That was when they were the radio interference group.
I suspect that Ofcom don't know for sure what the rights are.
Of course if you don't have a license they don't have any right of entry and they must apply for a search warrant, and to do that they have to demonstrate good reason to a magistrate. Used to happen a lot in the days of illegal CB, but very few examples recently that I am aware of.
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I suspect that Ofcom don't know for sure what the rights are.
Of course if you don't have a license they don't have any right of entry and they must apply for a search warrant, and to do that they have to demonstrate good reason to a magistrate. Used to happen a lot in the days of illegal CB, but very few examples recently that I am aware of.
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Bergman
New member
Re: PS
I am told on good authority that amatuer radio equipment is exemt from CE nonsense.
Hmmmmm.
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I am told on good authority that amatuer radio equipment is exemt from CE nonsense.
Hmmmmm.
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Gunfleet
New member
Re: PS
If you can self build I suppose it must be.
John
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If you can self build I suppose it must be.
John
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Mike_Martin
New member
The rights of Ofcom Field Officers are exactly the sameas they were in RA except that the powers have been extended by the Communications Act 2003. There is now the power to levy on-the-spot fines although their level or use have not been decided as yet.
Mike
<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom
Mike
<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom
Mike_Martin
New member
Re: PS
Unfortunately not "good enough" authority.
Self or Home build Amateur equipment is indeed exempt from CE and Type Approval (R&TTE) requirements, however, off-the-shelf purchased products such as those available from ICOM or Yaesu are not and must comply with relevant requirements.
Mike
<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom
Unfortunately not "good enough" authority.
Self or Home build Amateur equipment is indeed exempt from CE and Type Approval (R&TTE) requirements, however, off-the-shelf purchased products such as those available from ICOM or Yaesu are not and must comply with relevant requirements.
Mike
<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom
Bergman
New member
Re: PS
But what about users of makes other than Yaesu and Icom.
Surely Collins, Drake, Racal, Swan and KW to name but a few are not illegal
Not to mention the growing trend for using vintage and ex military stuff.
Or is it that there is a "start date" of some sort. If made before the date then no CE necessary.
Also lots of people have bought direct from US, its usually cheaper to import and pay VAT than pay UK dealer prices. I believe these sets do not have CE mark. Similarly lots of ancillary bits ATU, aerials, amplifiers etc get imported directly, are all these things included n the CE regulations.
Mainly Amateur in mind but I've seen quite a few elderly Sailor SSB sets in boats, I would love one of those.
Didn't know about the right to impose fines. Seems to be a growing trend traffic wardens, teachers and now RI guys. Bet you will have fun with that.
PS
Glad you've got a proper job now
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But what about users of makes other than Yaesu and Icom.
Surely Collins, Drake, Racal, Swan and KW to name but a few are not illegal
Not to mention the growing trend for using vintage and ex military stuff.
Or is it that there is a "start date" of some sort. If made before the date then no CE necessary.
Also lots of people have bought direct from US, its usually cheaper to import and pay VAT than pay UK dealer prices. I believe these sets do not have CE mark. Similarly lots of ancillary bits ATU, aerials, amplifiers etc get imported directly, are all these things included n the CE regulations.
Mainly Amateur in mind but I've seen quite a few elderly Sailor SSB sets in boats, I would love one of those.
Didn't know about the right to impose fines. Seems to be a growing trend traffic wardens, teachers and now RI guys. Bet you will have fun with that.
PS
Glad you've got a proper job now
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Mike_Martin
New member
Re: PS
The general rule of thumb is that everything that is sold within the Euro Market non food clothing etc has some form of CE marking.
For the ins and out on Amateur kit you could have a chat with my colleagues dealing with Amateur and CB services, e-mail to amateurcb@ofcom.org.uk
Mike
<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom
The general rule of thumb is that everything that is sold within the Euro Market non food clothing etc has some form of CE marking.
For the ins and out on Amateur kit you could have a chat with my colleagues dealing with Amateur and CB services, e-mail to amateurcb@ofcom.org.uk
Mike
<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom
Bergman
New member
Re: PS
Thanks for that
Just out of curiosity is enforcement of CE regs in this area part of Ofcom responsibility or is there some central organisation, DTI perhaps, who enforce CE stuff on everything.
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Thanks for that
Just out of curiosity is enforcement of CE regs in this area part of Ofcom responsibility or is there some central organisation, DTI perhaps, who enforce CE stuff on everything.
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Mike_Martin
New member
Re: PS
Generally speaking, outside of radio, it is a matter for Local Trading Standards Officers. We of course are involved when it comes to radio because of interference two recent high profile ones are car alarm key fobs and illegal video senders.
Mike
<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom
Generally speaking, outside of radio, it is a matter for Local Trading Standards Officers. We of course are involved when it comes to radio because of interference two recent high profile ones are car alarm key fobs and illegal video senders.
Mike
<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom
Bilgediver
Well-known member
Re: typical
Don t confuse two separate issues.... There is ce marking and there is type approval.
CE approval basically means it is safe it wont kill you and the buearocrats have received vast fees for issuing it....CE on a radio does not mean that it works or transmits...just that its safe...a Fisher Price marine VHF could have CE markings but it wouldn t raise the coastguard.
Each country also has type approval and yes you do have to specify the radio make and model when applying for a licence, check out the back of the form..
HAving fitted a type approved radio then there is the question of voluntary fit....IE extra radios and yes you might forget to declare these
BEware...just cos a radio works in the usa doesn t mean it works in the UK. Some USA radios are less than user friendly and don t always default to international channels. This could mean transmitting on the wrong frequency should the radio be keyed up when it has defaulted back to USA, as many of our duplex channels are treated as simplex channels in the USA. ie 20.21.22.23 etc.
Another problem is that some channels in the USA have a maximum power of 1 watt so you might not be able to raise the coastguard ...I believe 67 is one of these
YEs it is a nuisance but don t use a USA radio over here unless you have checked out it is doing exactly what you think it is at the power you believe..
Beware some of the cheepy DSC radios available on EBAY as it would appear they might have fallen off the back of a states bound ship..LoL..some of the DSC facilities on the very cheap radios are less than desirable even if better than nothing but may not meet European type approval.
YEs this is a subject that can get folk hot under the collar but with good reason..as ever...Buyer beware..for more than one reason .
JoHn
<hr width=100% size=1>Chaka of Birdham MFAX
Don t confuse two separate issues.... There is ce marking and there is type approval.
CE approval basically means it is safe it wont kill you and the buearocrats have received vast fees for issuing it....CE on a radio does not mean that it works or transmits...just that its safe...a Fisher Price marine VHF could have CE markings but it wouldn t raise the coastguard.
Each country also has type approval and yes you do have to specify the radio make and model when applying for a licence, check out the back of the form..
HAving fitted a type approved radio then there is the question of voluntary fit....IE extra radios and yes you might forget to declare these
BEware...just cos a radio works in the usa doesn t mean it works in the UK. Some USA radios are less than user friendly and don t always default to international channels. This could mean transmitting on the wrong frequency should the radio be keyed up when it has defaulted back to USA, as many of our duplex channels are treated as simplex channels in the USA. ie 20.21.22.23 etc.
Another problem is that some channels in the USA have a maximum power of 1 watt so you might not be able to raise the coastguard ...I believe 67 is one of these
YEs it is a nuisance but don t use a USA radio over here unless you have checked out it is doing exactly what you think it is at the power you believe..
Beware some of the cheepy DSC radios available on EBAY as it would appear they might have fallen off the back of a states bound ship..LoL..some of the DSC facilities on the very cheap radios are less than desirable even if better than nothing but may not meet European type approval.
YEs this is a subject that can get folk hot under the collar but with good reason..as ever...Buyer beware..for more than one reason .
JoHn
<hr width=100% size=1>Chaka of Birdham MFAX
Bilgediver
Well-known member
It is not unusual for these inspectors to wander around marinas and ask to come aboard yachts.
I rememeber one inspector questioning my son about our radio installation from the jetty...Finally asked if we had the station callsign displayed near the radio. This produced a suitable response that one would expect from a cheeeky youngster
confirming that this was the case. Yes every spring they wander round the marinas in Scotland!!!!!!!!
JoHn
<hr width=100% size=1>Chaka of Birdham MFAX
I rememeber one inspector questioning my son about our radio installation from the jetty...Finally asked if we had the station callsign displayed near the radio. This produced a suitable response that one would expect from a cheeeky youngster
confirming that this was the case. Yes every spring they wander round the marinas in Scotland!!!!!!!!
JoHn
<hr width=100% size=1>Chaka of Birdham MFAX