Square sail in Aug PBO - anyone used one?

[carl170]

Hi.

The title pretty much says it all. I really like the idea of a square sail and can see it working well on smaller boats. Just wondered if anyone had made one, what they made it from and how it performed? Seems such a simple idea.

I have a gunter rigged Caprice an feel this may be ideal project to make during the winter months. May give a few hours of fun next Summer (assuming we get a Summer!)

However, I am assuming there must be some drawbacks, or we wouldall be using them.

Shane Acton used a diamond shaped sail (made to his designs on a napkin I heard!), when he sailed Shrimpy.

Any feedback gratefully received.

Regards

Carl

 

[Golf Charley]

You could try googling viking long boat or similar, to get some ideas

 

[prv]

Never used one on a yacht, but have done a certain amount of sailing on a square-rigged ship.

The most obvious drawback is that they only work well downwind, and it's a lot of gear to carry around for the rest of the time. Nevertheless, cruising and even long-distance racing yachts did carry square sails in the 1930s and maybe for a while after the War too. I assume it was the development of the modern spinnaker that killed them off.

A fun project to play with, all the same.

There was another thread about this a few months back with some information that might be useful.

Pete

 

[westernman]

I have a square sail. 570 sq ft. Apparently. Never used it. It seems very complicated to set, and it takes up a fair amount of space (which the crew need to store there extensive wardrobe of clothes and shoes - don't ask).

Instead I usually have on board the 1200 sq ft reaching genoa. This is much less complicated (apart from folding it after use) and has the desired effect for a wider range of wind directions.

If I was likely to do a lot of trade wind sailing and was likely to spend days running dead before the wind, then my priorities might be different.

In the med, only once I have wanted to go dead downwind. Then it was blowing a F9 and just the staysail on its own was plenty.

 

[William_H]

Square sail

Sorry I can't see any reason to use one except to claim to be following an ancient tradition.
Disadvantages are you need a heavy yard arm. This must be either hoisted from the deck with sail attached or as of old left attached up the mast and the crew go up to unfurl or reef the sail. You lose righting moment with all that weight up top.
A spinacker is like a square sail but the top tapers to a single halyard rather than being spread by a yard arm. That means less heeling power at the top and more area down low where it does less heeling harm.
And of course ordinary fore and aft sails work quite weel down wind and very well up wind.
No contest on fore and aft + spin versus square rig.
Indeed we have a very nice square rig Bark (Leeuwin) based in Fremantle, always available for short or long voyages. I have resisted sailing on it because I don't think I could stand by seeing a square rig (or even gaff rig ) without wanting to redesign the rig and I would probably be thrown overboard.
I love a modern sloop rig just beautiful. olewill

 

[Twister_Ken]

Disadvantages are you need a heavy yard arm.

olewill

Carbon fibre?

 

[barnaclephill]

square sail experience

Carl,
I haven't sailed with one either, but here's some links to Arrandir, a 14 foot yacht that sometimes uses a squaresail. The English version of his website doesn't have much of the voyage, but his Swedish pages do. Also he has some stuff on Youtube.

You may be able to translate some of it by knowing German, or using GoogleTranslate/altavista/babelfish etc.

http://www.arrandir.se/arrandir/fakta.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdP_b8y0QYY
http://www.arrandir.se/arrapic/arrapic3.html

 

[dolphin]

downwind sail

good day,

in one of the other threads i have mentioned that i am planning to make my tests sails and one of them is for downwind sailing - squire sail

i have read below article before a few years and finally decided to give a try this winter !
the person designed and tested the sail is a very experienced sailor and i am keen to believe in everything, what he have said !

the sail is FLAT, stay under the spreader and hoist by light wooden spar! there are also wings on the both sides of the sail + separate one triangular top sail!

i am looking for this kind of sail, to be easy operated by single person!


qte
All cruising yachtsmen are aware of the shortcomings of the fore and aft sails on the modern yacht when running before the wind.
In fact, there is no sail designed only for this purpose in the present sail wardrobe. There are spinnakers, genakers and twin jibs, but these sails are for multi-crewed yachts and do not really meet the needs of cruising sailors.
But there is a new sail which carries out this task very well. I used it on a circumnavigation of the world in 1990/91 in the yacht SEABIRD. This new sail was experimental but performed far beyond my expectations.
I used it whenever the wind was aft or off either quarter. As I was in the South East and North East trade winds nearly all the time, this sail was in constant use for 16,000 – 20,000 miles and could quite easily have gone around again.
It gave me excellent boat speed – about one knot faster than many other cruising yachts. It was easily handled by one person, never flapped or gave any trouble, and gave a very pleasant down-wind ride.
The centre of effort is low over the centre line of the yacht –completely different from a spinnaker. The sail is easily lowered on to the deck, another factor which is a boon compared with handling a large spinnaker single-handed. There are no long booms or poles to set up – just one short, lightweight spar. The sail sets vertically and does not spill out the wind, so all of the sail area is used to good effect.
This sail should be on every yacht, as it enables the boat to run directly down-wind with no danger of rounding up or having the mainsail gybe. The mainsail can be lowered and stowed on the boom, fastened in a permanent stowage position or boom crutch.
All other sails are bagged and not used when this running sail is in use.
This sail suits a cutter rigged sloop with one set of spreaders - as the sail sets forward of the mast and curves outside the masthead shrouds. The main requirement is a halyard at the height required.
The sail is supported by a short spar in a loose sleeve along the top of the sail. The centre panel fills the area between the main side stays down to the deck, but allowing for good vision ahead under the foot of the sail. It has triangular wings out on either side, held out by sheets leading aft.
There are two tacks, which fasten to tie-down positions along both port and starboard rails, and from the ends of the spar guys (or braces) lead aft to angle the spar and sail to the wind. The spar needs to be just shorter than the combined length of the spreaders, and is raised by the staysail halyard.
A triangular topsail can also be set, tacked down onto the spar. It goes up on the genoa halyard. It is a good idea to have a light line to the top of this sail to pull it down behind the main spar running sail, as you may want to lower it without dropping the larger lower sail. The topsail will then “go to sleep” in behind the big sail.
Both sails are made flat, so are very easy to make. I used 3.5-oz cloth.
The tack corners and wings need extra layers of reinforcing for the strains put on them, and the centre panel (spar to deck) and the wing edges should be strengthened with tape or light synthetic rope to give the sail a strong structure. The top of the sail has a large, loose sleeve for the spar to slide through. Also make a hole at the centre of the top edge to clip on a halyard to a stainless steel plate wrapped around under the spar with the connecting holes at the top. The spar should have four holes close to the ends.
The inner hole is to tie on the larger sail, to stop it running along the spar. The middle hole is for the topsail tack, and the two outer vertical ones are to splice a guy or brace line on the side facing aft.
When rigging the sail, simply slide one end of the spar through the sleeve and pull through the already spliced-on brace line.
These brace lines lead aft inside the rigging, and the sheets off the wings lead aft outside the rigging.
To set the sails, have the main running sail on deck forward of the mast, and the topsail forward of the inner forestay.
Slide the spar through the sleeve and pull through one brace rope. Take both braces aft and cleat. Tie the top of the sail to spar ends (first inside hole) using a short light lanyard sewn to the sail.
Tie the tacks to port and starboard rails loosely allowing for the angle at which the sail is to be set.
Take the wing sheets aft, outside all stays and cleat temporarily.
House the sail hard up to the block and cleat.
Tighten down the tacks so sail is fairly flat and not rubbing on the inner forestay
Move aft and adjust the brace lines to suit the wind and pull in the wing sheets.
To set the top sail, after steps 1,2 and 3 above, attach the tacks of the topsail close down to the spar. Put the spar close to the inner-forestay on the deck and have the foot edge of the topsail forward of this stay so the topsail will be outside and above this inner forestay when it is pulled aloft
Carry out steps 4,5 and 6 and return to the genoa halyard and set the topsail, which will have gone up with the spar and will be hanging down, waiting to be attended to.
To lower both sails, let go the topsail halyard and lower spar/sail to deck, using the staysail halyard.
For reefing, the main vertical centre panel of the spar sail should have an extra layer of cloth (300mm) wide from side to side in the middle. On each side two strong eyes are fitted, one above the other, so that when the sail is folded in half, these two eyes line up and become the reefed sail tacks.
By slipping the eye of a spliced rope through the eyelet you can then you can pass all the remaining rope through the splice and pull it up tight, and your new tacks are in place. Use the tacks on the bottom of the sail to tie the sail to the spar ends, on the downwind (forward) side. Your sail is then half it’s original size and double it’s strength.
On only two occasions on SEABIRD did I have to reef this sail, in winds of more than 20 knots, and I was still able to hold my course and run before the wind at about the same speed as before without damaging the sail.
I can thoroughly recommend this sail. It needed very little attention while in use, and made running before the wind a total joy. It never overpowered the windvane trim tab self-steering, and was used day and night for many months on end.
My MPS spinnaker easily overstressed the self-steering in winds above 12 knots and therefore could not be used, as SEABIRD went off reaching across the wind, far off course.
The MPS was never to be relied on, except in winds around 8 – 10 knots. Below that it hung and bagged and jerked the sheet.
The cost of the MPS at that time was $1350. The cost of the experimental running sail was $200. The MPS was virtually useless, while the spar running sail was ideal for the job and totally reliable.
On the run from South Africa (Port Owen) to St Helena, the 10m SEABIRD took 17 days, the 12.8 m SPIRIT of KALAHARI took 20 days and the 11.6m SHARGA took 22 days.
SEABIRD’s MPS has now been made into a running sail/topsail combination and is used on a new yacht, SAIL HO. It is wonderfully effective.
This is a new sail, and it is needed. Make one up and try it: you will be pleased you did.
unqte


if someone is interesting from this kind of sail i can give more details as i am not sure that i can attach here due to the file's size !

i apologize for the long post !

with best regards


http://www.neatcss.com/

 

[Andorran]

Ive sailed on a few square riggers including a number of viking longship replicas (I was on one on the weekend in Cardiff Bay for example) and in my experience the square rig is much more effective than people generally suppose, including when sailing to windward.

The main advantage of it is that you can get a much greater area of sail for the length of the boat. If you dont include the roach of a bermudan sail then a square on the same mast would be about four times the size of the mainsail. Spinnakers can be larger, but are unstable. If the wind drops when you have a squaresail hoisted it sits there rather than collapsing.

Bermudan rigs seem to be principally favored because they are much easier to tack and they point a few degrees higher (and it really is only a few degrees). Conversly when sailing downwind it becomes much more difficult to gybe especially if you have a spinnaker up. The square sail is the exact opposite of this being very easy to gybe and remarkably tricky to tack.

I also wouldnt suggest cutting the square sail flat. It should be trapazoidal but with broad seams cut into the foot so as to add some curvature. The reason being that the driving force of the wind onto a flat sail is parrallel to the water surface but acting at the centre of effort of the sail which is generally above the longitudinal metacentre. This acts to push the bow down into the water slowing you. A properly cut and trimmed sail will create a driving force with an element of lift countering this.

Having said all that, Ive never really considered putting a square sail on Andorran. Interesting OP.

Regards,

Tom

 

[cliffordpope]

I have recently converted a cheap plastic rowing boat into a simple sailing dinghy, and gave it a home-made standing lug rig.

It occured to me that this is really only a lop-sided square sail. I believe the Viking ships could sail to windward by hauling the yard down at one side and securing it forward. It then becomes almost a fore and aft sail. A lateen sail is another inbetween variant.

 

[Poignard]

Conor O'Brien [author of 'Across Three Oceans' etc] came to the conclusion after his circumnavigation in the 1920s, that the best rig for ocean voyaging was the square sail because the routes usually chosen would have the prevailing wind aft of the beam.

His system consisted of a sail attached to the yard with hoops, and to set or furl it, the head was drawn across the yard from the centre outward or back. Everything was controlled from the deck and the yard could be sent down or cock-billed if necessary. For getting in and out of harbour he reckoned a good sized engine was the best bet, although when he did his circumnavigation he had no engine and followed big sailing ship practice by getting towed into port.

Seems to me that if you have a pig of a motor-sailer that won't go to windward at all you might just as well have a square sail instead of fore-and-afters that don't achieve anything.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Rolled around a carbon spar, it could stored until needed, swivelled upright on the front face of the mast. Spinnaker cloth should be heavy enough. A split halyard to swivels at either end of the yard. Release it from mast stowage, square it horizontal, hoist it, then unroll the sail using sheets to clews at each lower corner (like unrolling a blind). Hey presto. The yard might not even need to be secured to the mast if the lead for the split halyard was properly sorted.

 

[prv]

in my experience the square rig is much more effective than people generally suppose, including when sailing to windward.

In my experience it's rubbish to windward

The first Tall Ships voyage I did was a race from Newcastle to Frederikstad in Norway. It wasn't direct though - there was a GPS-waypoint "mark" at the top of the North Sea. Some idiot had set this course without considering the wind direction, which was a solid Northerly.

Every morning there was a position update and status report on the HF radio. With each one, another ship or two or three had concluded that they were making zero ground to windward and retired from the race. We were crawling upwind, but so slowly that for three mornings running the Captain started his morning Tannoy announcement by saying "Good morning folks, we're just off Aberdeen" (we tacked away from the shore each morning and back towards it each night).

The book Windjammers relates the story of a ship trying to get upwind from one port in Australia to another, taking three weeks to go almost nowhere, then giving up and sailing right round the world as the faster option.

I love square rig, but it's still rubbish to windward.

Pete

 

[Poignard]

Rolled around a carbon spar, it could stored until needed, swivelled upright on the front face of the mast. Spinnaker cloth should be heavy enough. A split halyard to swivels at either end of the yard. Release it from mast stowage, square it horizontal, hoist it, then unroll the sail using sheets to clews at each lower corner (like unrolling a blind). Hey presto. The yard might not even need to be secured to the mast if the lead for the split halyard was properly sorted.

At least one of the sail training square-riggers has roller furling on its upper yards. And the idea is not new because they were invented in the 19th century.

I also have a picture of a Thames barge with a square sail set.

I wouldn't fancy going down the Solent with it set on a Bank Holiday weekend and people not knowing which tack I was on. Mind you, to some in the Solent it doesn't seem to make much difference which tack other boats are on

 

[Andorran]

I believe the Viking ships could sail to windward by hauling the yard down at one side and securing it forward. It then becomes almost a fore and aft sail.

Ive contemplated the same thing myself however we have found that once the tack is secured the leward brace can then be pulled in tight at quite a steep downwards angle which tightens the luff of the sail using the yard as a lever. It then isnt overly dissimilar to a jib and will point to 45-50 degrees no problem. You can also increase the luff tension by using a bowline (I believe that the knot called the bowline should actually be called the bowline hitch since it was the prefered method of securing the bowline). This runs from the centre of the luff, often from a bridle between two or more points along the luff forwards to the stem or forestay and is hauled as tight as it can be.

His system consisted of a sail attached to the yard with hoops, and to set or furl it, the head was drawn across the yard from the centre outward or back.

Thats a very clever way of furling the sail which Id love to see in action. We either just drop the yard to the deck or add clewlines to brail the sail up to the yard.

A split halyard to swivels at either end of the yard. Release it from mast stowage, square it horizontal, hoist it, then unroll the sail using sheets to clews at each lower corner (like unrolling a blind). Hey presto. The yard might not even need to be secured to the mast if the lead for the split halyard was properly sorted.

If you have a single halyard in the centre you dont need a parrell unless you are part hoisting with a reef. I like the idea of rolled furling, I know they use in yard furling on a number of tall ships which would probably add a bit more weight but it would allow you to do away with the split halyard and just haul from the centre.

 

[Andorran]

I love square rig, but it's still rubbish to windward.

At least we can agree that its lovely then...

Ive a lot less experience of tallships than single sailed square riggers. I did find Prince William to be a dog on just about every point of sail but then she is modern and there are so few of them build nowadays that it would be impossible for the designer to be an expert.

You should try longships...more rape and pillage for a start

 

[prv]

At least one of the sail training square-riggers has roller furling on its upper yards. And the idea is not new because they were invented in the 19th century.

The Jubilee Sailing Trust ships have roller topgallants and royals. Us Tall Ships Youth Trust folks mock them gently for it

You can also increase the luff tension by using a bowline. This runs from the centre of the luff, often from a bridle between two or more points along the luff forwards to the stem or forestay and is hauled as tight as it can be.

Stavros has a handy-billy that hooks onto a becket on the fore-course tack for boarding it in really tight, but in practice we'll quite often just take the main part of the tack over to the warping drum on the anchor windlass and crank it down that way.

Thats a very clever way of furling the sail which Id love to see in action.

There's a gaff cutter with a squaresail yard on the pontoon next to mine (pontoon extends from a different boatyard though so I can't just wander over). That looks like the sail pulls out from the centre like a pair of curtains. The yard is kept cockbilled, with the sail hanging down in front of the mast with a cover pulled up over it.

Ive a lot less experience of tallships than single sailed square riggers. I did find Prince William to be a dog on just about every point of sail

Ah, yes, I can imagine there's a lot more that can be done to get a viking-style sail to work to windward. As well as being less versatile, part of the problem of big square-rig gear is that it offers masses of windage - it's almost hard to see through the rig from some angles, and Stavros will "sail" very noticeably under "bare" poles to the extent that we have to tack the yards even when no sails are set on them. Didn't matter when the ships were rolling down the trade winds.

Neither TSYT ship was a fantastic sailer, but I believe William as the younger twin was the slightly better of the two, having gained some tweaks learned once Stavros was launched. Of course, William was the one they selected to get rid of (now sold to the Pakistani Navy) on the grounds that the better ship would earn more money .

Pete

 

[prv]

You should try longships

That sounds fun. Where do I sign up?

Pete

 

[DownWest]

That sounds fun. Where do I sign up?

Pete

Used to be Denmark, not so sure now... Don't forget your double axe and cowhorn helmet..

On carbon spars: I had a chat with the guy who designed the one for the Portuguese caravella. That is a LONG spar. Some where he sent some pics to me. Used to post here.

Mate has a 34ft Pinkey gaff ketch, with two square sails on the mainmast. Since he is usually single handed, he has only used them once. And is now restoring her (he built her in the first place) for a big trip. South Atlantic to St.Helena and on round Cape town. I will see if he cares to post about his experiences.
A

 

[dolphin]

downwind sail - sharing the information from the test

good day to all!
just returned from my sailing holiday and have a chance to test my handmade downwind square & raiding sails, which share with you !
attached are some photos on the sail once in use!
the sail is hoisted by a spar with length about 2.60 m
the results are - the wind speed 5 kn, the boat speed is 2.2 kn, on 12 kn wind - 5.2 kn boat's speed !
the top sail is giving approximately 0.5 kn !
what is interesting with this sail - the sail is very forgiving and allow the course of the boat to vary a lot! when out of course, just one of the wing sail do not work properly!
the sail work well with any direction of the wind from aft!
also attached is the picture of riding sail - not actually in use but just hoist for test
size of the downwind sail is - 30 sqm of the main sail & 7 sqm of the topsail
cloth - 3.5 oz
riding sail - cloth 5.5 oz, size - total about 5 sqm ( 2x2.5)
with best regards