aztec
Well-Known Member
hi, anyone know if i could have one of my boats sprayed with something like toplac?
or would ordinary car paint do the job?
cheers, steve.
or would ordinary car paint do the job?
cheers, steve.
spraying toplac?
- Thread starter aztec
- Start date
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Spraying specs here
I wouldn't use car paint myself. Two-pack is nasty and the others generally react with something that's been on before. Not terrifically robust either as it's designed for thin film thickness and high quality finish.
I wouldn't use car paint myself. Two-pack is nasty and the others generally react with something that's been on before. Not terrifically robust either as it's designed for thin film thickness and high quality finish.
Sans Bateau
Well-Known Member
We used Toplac to repaint our first boat, come to think of it we did more painting than sailing!
We applied the paint using a small foam roller, then laid off with a good quality brush. The results were just fabulous! The effort involved in spraying is just not worth it.
We applied the paint using a small foam roller, then laid off with a good quality brush. The results were just fabulous! The effort involved in spraying is just not worth it.
Captain Coochie
Well-Known Member
Ive tried spraying my work time and time again and its a nightmare . I managed to get the best result with waterbased paint but thats another subject . If Toplacs info says it can be sprayed then it has a spraying carrier in the paint . You may find it very costly as most solvent based paints need to be put into a heated and vented room after spraying and left to dry .
Not too bad if you have a mate that owns a spray shop but id hate to think of the costs if you dont .
But it can be done .
Not too bad if you have a mate that owns a spray shop but id hate to think of the costs if you dont .
But it can be done .
Tisme
Well-Known Member
Mmmmm. All two packs are "nasty" irrespective of whether they are car or marine paints. If they contain isocyanates (and most do) then, if they are sprayed special care needs to be taken with masks and ventilation. Brush or roller application avoids the problem as the isocyantes are not atomised into the atmosphere.
If a paint reacts with the substrate then either the wrong system has been used or the preparation has not been done properly....whether you are using marine or car paints.
I would also disagree with you about car paints not being "robust". The technologies of marine and car "cosmetic" paints are essentially the same with minor differences mainly related to methods of application.
If Aztec can get car paint at a good price he would find it fine for his boat. If he wants to have it sprayed, so long as the sprayer knows what he is doing then it should be fine. If, however, there is any doubt about getting it sprayed then brush/roller is the way to go.....a good brush/roller application is better than a poor spray job.
If a paint reacts with the substrate then either the wrong system has been used or the preparation has not been done properly....whether you are using marine or car paints.
I would also disagree with you about car paints not being "robust". The technologies of marine and car "cosmetic" paints are essentially the same with minor differences mainly related to methods of application.
If Aztec can get car paint at a good price he would find it fine for his boat. If he wants to have it sprayed, so long as the sprayer knows what he is doing then it should be fine. If, however, there is any doubt about getting it sprayed then brush/roller is the way to go.....a good brush/roller application is better than a poor spray job.
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
So to summarise:
-We think two packs are nasty
-We think that anything, other than enamels, will probably react with the original coatings, unless you apply a barrier coat.
-We don't agree about automative paints.
-We wouldn't bother spraying as the possibility of getting a still day with a clean enough environment is poor.
-We think a careful manual application is a safer bet.
Surely there must be something we can agree on.
-We think two packs are nasty
-We think that anything, other than enamels, will probably react with the original coatings, unless you apply a barrier coat.
-We don't agree about automative paints.
-We wouldn't bother spraying as the possibility of getting a still day with a clean enough environment is poor.
-We think a careful manual application is a safer bet.
Surely there must be something we can agree on.
PBooth
Well-Known Member
Hi, I've sprayed both Toplac and automotive 2-pack acrylic and both gave very good results. Use an etch primer onto the fibreglass for the acrylic to give better adhesion and the paint is very hard and durable (think of what cars put up with in 10 years on the road, including the salt). To spray Toplac, I thinned it with ordinary white spirit and the finnish was really good. It is plenty hot enough in summer to cure the paint (even outside like I was). Always wear an organic vapour mask when spraying any paint and wear gloves when mixing etc.
Peter
Peter
Tisme
Well-Known Member
I doubt that there is much I could agree with you about, but I was just correcting some missleading errors in your previous post. If you wish I can correct the errors in your follow up.
15 years working for a major paint manufacturer gives me some experience in this field.
I'll leave it at that.
Aztec. If you want to PM me about this I'll be happy to help.
15 years working for a major paint manufacturer gives me some experience in this field.
I'll leave it at that.
Aztec. If you want to PM me about this I'll be happy to help.
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Loveable, as ever.
Tisme
Well-Known Member
Perhaps you should stick to your usual banal stuff. You clearly don't know much about paint and shouldn't attempt to mislead others.
Vara
Well-Known Member
Go on lakie,hit him with the photos..............no not those ones! The mini body and engine paint job,the Heron and no doubt a few others you have kicking about!!
Blueboatman
Well-Known Member
Aztec,if you want to repaint your boat,do please consider the following.
Like any painting job,the preparation is what counts.Boats show blemishes quite readily,the reflected light from the water is unforgiving..
Do you really need to repaint? A few hours with a polisher can restore a faded and chalky gelcoat significantly.
This is what I found when I sprayed my 'project' grp boat..(And I repainted only because it had been badly hand painted at some time and I extended the hull by 2 feet aft.)
The existing surface was rough in places.And there were some surface cracks in the gelcoat.These had to be gouged out with a hacksaw blade and epoxy filled-every single tiny one-otherwise the new paint will show them up again..
I still had doubts about the prepped surface-So I sprayed it with a high build epoxy primer,which was then sanded with a palm sander,random da(orbital)sander and longboard(hand sanding).
Then I 'blew' it with 2part industrial(not Marine)Imron with a fast accelerant added.
Sprayed outdoors,using brown paper and not polythene as masking material,rags soaked in solvent hanging from the scaffolding to deter bugs,a nice windless sunny morning,an enormous compressor to deliver enough VOLUME of air and myself wearing a cartridge mask.
The finished result-for240 dollars in materials plus all of my uncosted labour-really looked the biz.% years later it looked like new too.
On deck for the nonskid areas I hand rolled Toplac with a matting agent(dulling) and nonskid additives,unfortunately it proved nothing like as hard as the 2pack stuff,so whilst easy to redo and touch up,went on a 2 year rolling maintenance schedule.
The ''industrial' Imron was vastly cheaper than the ''Marine''one,no one was able to explain the technical differences though there must be some..
Like any painting job,the preparation is what counts.Boats show blemishes quite readily,the reflected light from the water is unforgiving..
Do you really need to repaint? A few hours with a polisher can restore a faded and chalky gelcoat significantly.
This is what I found when I sprayed my 'project' grp boat..(And I repainted only because it had been badly hand painted at some time and I extended the hull by 2 feet aft.)
The existing surface was rough in places.And there were some surface cracks in the gelcoat.These had to be gouged out with a hacksaw blade and epoxy filled-every single tiny one-otherwise the new paint will show them up again..
I still had doubts about the prepped surface-So I sprayed it with a high build epoxy primer,which was then sanded with a palm sander,random da(orbital)sander and longboard(hand sanding).
Then I 'blew' it with 2part industrial(not Marine)Imron with a fast accelerant added.
Sprayed outdoors,using brown paper and not polythene as masking material,rags soaked in solvent hanging from the scaffolding to deter bugs,a nice windless sunny morning,an enormous compressor to deliver enough VOLUME of air and myself wearing a cartridge mask.
The finished result-for240 dollars in materials plus all of my uncosted labour-really looked the biz.% years later it looked like new too.
On deck for the nonskid areas I hand rolled Toplac with a matting agent(dulling) and nonskid additives,unfortunately it proved nothing like as hard as the 2pack stuff,so whilst easy to redo and touch up,went on a 2 year rolling maintenance schedule.
The ''industrial' Imron was vastly cheaper than the ''Marine''one,no one was able to explain the technical differences though there must be some..
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Tome's made a good point there.
You may have a marvelous grasp of the spec sheets and technicalities, but the question was about the real world and how to get a result.
I am relying on many years of applying paints on my projects like the mini...
and the Heron...
and the plastic tub...
I may not know as much as you about paint, but what I do know translates well into real-life projects, and that's what aztec wanted to know. What would work.
I can't see why you are so obnoxiously rude to people on this forum. It's not difficult to correct someone without being superior and dimissive. If we all (and I know I'm not the only one) get up your nose, why not go somewhere else?
Promise me you'll think about it.
You may have a marvelous grasp of the spec sheets and technicalities, but the question was about the real world and how to get a result.
I am relying on many years of applying paints on my projects like the mini...
and the Heron...
and the plastic tub...
I may not know as much as you about paint, but what I do know translates well into real-life projects, and that's what aztec wanted to know. What would work.
I can't see why you are so obnoxiously rude to people on this forum. It's not difficult to correct someone without being superior and dimissive. If we all (and I know I'm not the only one) get up your nose, why not go somewhere else?
Promise me you'll think about it.
Captain Coochie
Well-Known Member
I think hes fuc*ed you on this one /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Not that im judging you understand but he did well and truly fu*k you over /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Not that im judging you understand but he did well and truly fu*k you over /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Ships_Cat
Well-Known Member
As far as I know most automotive paints are acrylics and have nowhere like the lifetime performance of linear polyurethanes as is usually used on well finished boats. They are, putting aside the possibility of use on very small craft, NEVER used on other than back yard boat paint jobs by unknowing amateurs.
One will find that no builder of yachts of any size uses automotive paints, they just don't have the hardness and duribility of linear polyurethanes. People mention cost - the cost of the paint is small compared to the cost of the whole job if done professionally, and even if done with self labour the paint cost is low compared to its expected lifetime if one uses the CORRECT coatings.
As has been said, the polyurethanes and indeed most (all?) other 2 packs cannot be applied over conventional 1 packs but as another has said, it is only a matter of preparation, preferably complete removal of the old. It may be (and probably will be if the coatings are original factory ones) that the existing coating is polyurethane in which case it would be bordering on foolishness to reduce the quality of the finishes by then repainting with a non polyurethane over it.
A linear polyurethane will give 15 or more years of life on a cruising boat in a high UV environment if white and a few years less if coloured. The alternative of going to marine or other enamels or epoxies (which also discolour in UV) is much more frequent repaints and repairs.
Some have commented on spraying. My view (and the same has been said by another forumite involved with boat repairs) is if one wants to keep the heavy cost down from a professional paint job and get a purrfect sprayed finish like glass is to do the preparation work oneself but get a pro in to spray it. The labour time in spraying is zilch compared to the time of the whole job including preparation, and one will end up with a pro job and with required coating thicknesses being maintained.
A comment often made by forumites against polyurethanes is the difficulty of repairing damage to it. That again is uninformed rubbish. Like any paint colour matching MAY be a problem (but the way to avoid that is to stay with white, and the main manufacturers, in any event keep their colour cards the same for many, many years) but the repair is dead easy and very quick due to the short setting times - just one of many examples, I have been working on (as advisor, not as crew) a commercial boat that dinged its aluminium plating while berthing late in the day - the ding was pushed out first thing in the morning and the damage recoated from the aluminium up to final finish in that same day with the boat only missing one days service.
Minor blemishes in polyurethanes (which don't occur often as the coating is so hard) are easily touched up by hand with an artists brush. Left over paint from the original paint job will keep for at least five years for touchups (and with no problems of skinning, etc) and, as an example, the manufacturer whose paints I am most familiar with over time has maintained the same colour card for more than 15 years (I don't remember further back than then /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif).
And as comfort to LakeSailor, if one has a littley boat that can easily be trailored out of the water, stored in the backyard and the thought of recoating every few years is not a burden, then enamels are just fine. I used to do the same in my dinghy days /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.
Also, if all one is after is a mean job on a bigger boat with little worry about service life and appearances then a regular slap on of enamel is also fine. It can, of course, then often be done with the boat still in the water either from the dinghy or marina berth.
But in every other case a polyurethane is the best bet.
John
One will find that no builder of yachts of any size uses automotive paints, they just don't have the hardness and duribility of linear polyurethanes. People mention cost - the cost of the paint is small compared to the cost of the whole job if done professionally, and even if done with self labour the paint cost is low compared to its expected lifetime if one uses the CORRECT coatings.
As has been said, the polyurethanes and indeed most (all?) other 2 packs cannot be applied over conventional 1 packs but as another has said, it is only a matter of preparation, preferably complete removal of the old. It may be (and probably will be if the coatings are original factory ones) that the existing coating is polyurethane in which case it would be bordering on foolishness to reduce the quality of the finishes by then repainting with a non polyurethane over it.
A linear polyurethane will give 15 or more years of life on a cruising boat in a high UV environment if white and a few years less if coloured. The alternative of going to marine or other enamels or epoxies (which also discolour in UV) is much more frequent repaints and repairs.
Some have commented on spraying. My view (and the same has been said by another forumite involved with boat repairs) is if one wants to keep the heavy cost down from a professional paint job and get a purrfect sprayed finish like glass is to do the preparation work oneself but get a pro in to spray it. The labour time in spraying is zilch compared to the time of the whole job including preparation, and one will end up with a pro job and with required coating thicknesses being maintained.
A comment often made by forumites against polyurethanes is the difficulty of repairing damage to it. That again is uninformed rubbish. Like any paint colour matching MAY be a problem (but the way to avoid that is to stay with white, and the main manufacturers, in any event keep their colour cards the same for many, many years) but the repair is dead easy and very quick due to the short setting times - just one of many examples, I have been working on (as advisor, not as crew) a commercial boat that dinged its aluminium plating while berthing late in the day - the ding was pushed out first thing in the morning and the damage recoated from the aluminium up to final finish in that same day with the boat only missing one days service.
Minor blemishes in polyurethanes (which don't occur often as the coating is so hard) are easily touched up by hand with an artists brush. Left over paint from the original paint job will keep for at least five years for touchups (and with no problems of skinning, etc) and, as an example, the manufacturer whose paints I am most familiar with over time has maintained the same colour card for more than 15 years (I don't remember further back than then /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif).
And as comfort to LakeSailor, if one has a littley boat that can easily be trailored out of the water, stored in the backyard and the thought of recoating every few years is not a burden, then enamels are just fine. I used to do the same in my dinghy days /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.
Also, if all one is after is a mean job on a bigger boat with little worry about service life and appearances then a regular slap on of enamel is also fine. It can, of course, then often be done with the boat still in the water either from the dinghy or marina berth.
But in every other case a polyurethane is the best bet.
John
TheBoatman
Well-Known Member
I've repainted 4 of our club boats using Toplac, the first time round I sprayed a good quality grey undercoat then thinned the Toplac with white spirit @50-50 first then 75-25 for the last coats - the results were good.
The second time around repainting the same boats I used a small foam roller and laid off with a high quality brush without any thinning - results were just as good, if not better.
Why do I repaint almost every year - because they're club boats and the members knock the cr*p out of them /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
It really doesn't matter whether you spray or brush but what you do have to get right if you want a good finish is the preparation of the base. What I do is give the hull a quick rub down with 240 wet & dry this gets you close to the hull and you can see the knocks - then fill and rub down again - then spray a thin undercoat on as this will show up all those knocks you didn't see first couple of times round - refill and respray u/coat - rub back with 600 w & d - when the u/coat looks good apply a couple of good u/coats and rub back with 1000/1200 w & d
This will produce a good solid smooth base to apply the top coats and as you do rub down between coats with 1200 w & d.
Peter.
The second time around repainting the same boats I used a small foam roller and laid off with a high quality brush without any thinning - results were just as good, if not better.
Why do I repaint almost every year - because they're club boats and the members knock the cr*p out of them /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
It really doesn't matter whether you spray or brush but what you do have to get right if you want a good finish is the preparation of the base. What I do is give the hull a quick rub down with 240 wet & dry this gets you close to the hull and you can see the knocks - then fill and rub down again - then spray a thin undercoat on as this will show up all those knocks you didn't see first couple of times round - refill and respray u/coat - rub back with 600 w & d - when the u/coat looks good apply a couple of good u/coats and rub back with 1000/1200 w & d
This will produce a good solid smooth base to apply the top coats and as you do rub down between coats with 1200 w & d.
Peter.
Other threads that may be of interest
