spithead fog at the weekend

[chubby]

Anyone else out in the fog off Portsmouth entrance on saturday? Was I foolhardy to procede or it this what we do our blind nav training for? The vis in the harbour was ok but down to one cable outside and clearly leisure boats were annoying the ferries. I was monitoring ch11, had radar on the 0.75 mile range, chart plotter going, all visible from the helm and proceding at a safe speed, 3-4 knots. If you turn stbd after the entrance and use the inner swash you are immediately away from the IOW ferries and hovercraft and only have other yachties to avoid. Once beyond Gilkicker, ch 12 tells you of Soton movements, which are fewer, bigger and slower moving than the fast ferries off Portsmouth. The vis cleared in the central Solent and lovely sail to Bealieu to rendevous with friends for the evening. Was I justified to be slightly peeved at being buzzed by the well meaning QHM patrol to tell me what I knew and had prepared for, or should I have crept back to the mooring and gone shopping for the weekend?!

 

[oldharry]

Skippers decision every time - not QHMs business in my view.

Unfortunately QHM has to deal with a number of leisure owners who are not so well prepared as you, and who need to to be kept clear of commercial traffic interests for their own safety, so I can not say I entirely blame them....

However I do not agree with you that the Soton shipping movements are slow enough to be safe in thick fog. Their minimum speed is at least twice that of the average yacht even in the Solent, and in bad vis that means you have very little time to get out of the way - if indeed you can! Assuming they have spotted you on their radar ( an unsafe assumption anyway) there is very little a small ship can do safely to avoid you, while a VLCC or Supertanker can only carry on regardless. A fact not always appreciated by some amateur yachtsmen.

 

[plombier]

[ QUOTE ]
Skippers decision every time - not QHMs business in my view.

Unfortunately QHM has to deal with a number of leisure owners who are not so well prepared as you, and who need to to be kept clear of commercial traffic interests for their own safety, so I can not say I entirely blame them....

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree with this. However, the QHM patrol cannot know how well prepared each boat is, nor the experience of the skipper in such conditions. I'm sure they had your best interests and safety in mind when they spoke to you.

What must be considered is that, if an "incident" occurs then QHM would become involved along with several other peeps (including, dare I say it, probably lawyers) so, the fact that they had spoken to you would have been logged together with your response.

LNTM 16/02 entitled PORTSMOUTH HARBOUR - MOVEMENT OF VESSELS IN HARBOUR AND APPROACH CHANNEL DURING POOR VISIBILITY covers this situation with:-
"Vessels under 20m in length including yachts are strongly advised not to move when Fog Routine is in force but may proceed at the skippers discretion. Such vessels are to proceed with extreme caution and are to keep well clear of the Main and Approach Channels of the harbour."

 

[doris]

We were coming back into Portsmouth at about 14.00 hrs on Saturday and it was staggering the number of boats leaving the harbour without any radar, no life jackets on etc. Only one asked us about the fog, which off Gilkicker had been down to about 50m viz! There was about 200m of clear sunshine outside the harbour then there were the fog banks which were v. obvious but no-one seems to care. I am amazed that there were no accidents, or least that we have heard of yet. The RORC race to Le Harve started off Cowes at 13.00 and we saw several boats retire because of the fog, what sensible people they were! As far as I am concerned to knowingly set off into a peasouper without radar, and a person free to monitor it, is almost criminal. Anyone who reckons Saturday wasn't bad was not where we were.

 

[T_S]

I take it that the wind direction was probably a W, SW on Saturday then?

 

[[2574]]

We sat in Royal Clarence (Gosport) in lovely sunshine but could hear the fog horns in the E Solent - so we decided that a bottle of vin rouge was preferable whilst safely tied up. Man or a mouse? - Now where's the cheese?

rob

 

[Solitaire]

It wasn't to clever yesterday (Sunday) either. I had planned to go down to Poole and it was all OK until I was heading toward Hengisbury Head. Solid fog bank and it was very quick to get disorientated. I had a friend on board who is not used to powerboats in fog! I punched in way-point for No1 Bar Buoy to avoid going anywhere near the pots off the head. I had strong wind over as well and with still 10nms to go I opted to abort and headed back to the Solent via Lambeth and then in via North Head buoy. As soon as I was back in thru Hurst it was a different world. Bright sunshine, and then just spent the day "poodling" around. You could see the fog bank sitting over Christchurch Bay.

 

[Peppermint]

Re: We waited it out

in Cowes until it lifted a bit around lunch time. All racing on the squadron line was delayed but they were trying to get something going around 13:00. By time we got across towards Hill Head the fog rolled in and viz dropped to about 100m. We stayed in three metres and bumbled into the Hamble, which was our destination anyway, and found brilliant sunshine and limitless viz. inland.

I don't have radar. I don't go into pea soupers if I'm snug in harbour. Most of the yacht radars I've used, and that is quite a few, wouldn't induce me to go sailing in fog unless I also had a good grounding in navigation techniques, all of the info and a good plan. The other essential is time. You should always have the time to anchor up in the shallows and wait it out.

Not many yotties were using sound signals, but most folks had slowed down.

 

[PaulR]

Re: We waited it out

certainly interesting at weekend-we left gosport mid morning saturday when vis had cleared (it seemed) and set out to go to littlehampton- off chichester came into fog bank which cleared 10 minutes later so carried on but a couple of miles before looe channel came in thick so turned round and headed homeward-as we got back towards chichester bar beacon sun out good vis so decided to sail back to gosport under spinnaker-lovely sail,
sunday clear in porstmouth harbour so set off to go to beach on south side of island- 1/2 way across solent fog again and decided safest to carry straight across to island (vis c 100m) slightly bemused to have powerboat spot us , circle round to us and come very close and shout across-they have instrument problems - could we assist-offered to give them position but they just asked us to point towards portsmouth (yes really!) which we did and off they zoomed-off bembridge vis improved again and stayed ok for rest of day- we do not have radar - did have fog horn and were wearing lifejackets and 3 on watch but-had we known how thick the patch we encountered mid solent was - would have turned back and gone home - rightly or wrongly decided we were safest to carry straight across to shallower water north of fort off seaview and as mentioned vis then improved and stayed ok (blipper reflector up as well)

 

[martinb]

[ QUOTE ]
The RORC race to Le Harve started off Cowes at 13.00 and we saw several boats retire because of the fog, what sensible people they were! As far as I am concerned to knowingly set off into a peasouper without radar, and a person free to monitor it, is almost criminal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting point. I was on a boat on the Le Harve race and we set off without radar, to suggest that our actions exceeded your comfort and skill level is one thing, to suggest our actions verged on 'criminal' is another. I respect your decision not to go out, do not judge mine to proceed without knowing the basis of my decision and, dare I say it, my risk assessment. I could sugest that to take people out on a yacht without a Yachtmaster onboard and with overephasis on electronic gadgetry is even more criminal! but enough of this nonsence, you enjoy your sailing in conditions that suit your limited experience and knowledge, and let me and my experienced crew enjoy our passions of sailing and racing, in conditions that test our skills and abilities, yet harm you in no way.

Regards,

The criminal and reckless,

Martin

 

[wafu77]

Amazed to see how many boats of all persuasions leaving portsmouth/gosport on Saturday morning in the fog with no lights, sound signals, radar or lifejackets. is this sound seamanship? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[martinb]

[ QUOTE ]
Amazed to see how many boats of all persuasions leaving portsmouth/gosport on Saturday morning in the fog with no lights, sound signals, radar or lifejackets. is this sound seamanship? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Unsound seamanship abounds and is not determined by conditions, one could suggest that a clear sunny day with no wind produces more examples of foolish behaviour than any adverse conditions, that is not to suggest that all who venture out in said conditions are poor seaman!

Martin

 

[chubby]

This has provoked lots of replies: the wasn`t fog routine in Portsmouth harbour at the time I set out as the fog banks were outside the harbour entrance: I would have thought twice about continuing with fog in harbour. I don`t underestimate the shipping going to Southampton but it is relatively slow compared to the hovercraft and fast cats you encounter off Portsmouth, very well publised by VTS on ch12 and you can procede west down the Solent by going between the main and North channels and still be clear off them. A combination of chart plotter so you know exactly where you are and radar on short range, both visible from the wheel is a powerful combination and monitor the port ops channels.

 

[moodindigo]

I had always wanted an excuse for my wife (and crew) to practice reversing, mooring etc. As we felt unsafe to go out - what a great day we had!

The first rule of my sailing life was "Risk NO Life" - fog can raise the stakes alarmingly.

So QHM were doing that - Were sailors showing best skill?

From what we saw - in the patches of clear between banks- yachts at full steam ahead,
no harnesses or lifelines, no lifejackets
no lights

Everyone was lucky - it certainly annoyed the Ferries

 

[EdEssery]

Not in the fog off Spithead. We found our fair share in Christchurch bay on Sunday.

We were scheduled to race to Weymouth overnight on Friday and back again on Sunday. It all looked promising coming down Soton water on Friday afternoon but as we rounded Calshot to head for the start off the Beaulieu entrance the wind died completely. With bad visibility forecast and only 2-3 hours of fair tide, the race committee postponed the start until 05:00 earliest on Saturday with the start to be just east of Yarmouth. We then had a drag race under power to Yarmouth for a few bevvies. The Abbot ale in the Bugle was the best kept pint I have had for a long time. We awoke at 04:00 to hear the Race Committee announce that they were in position on one end of the line but couldn't see the buoy at the other end! We lay in our bunks dozing and getting regular updates on the state of the fog. At 09:00 racing was called off for the day. By lunchtime the fog had lifted and we spent a glorious lunchtime in the sun on the balcony of the Royal Solent. Racing was promised for Sunday at 07:00 wind and vis. permitting - we were hopeful as we returned to the boat at closing time. The air was much warmer and the decks were dry. At 06:00 we woke to a glorious morning with good vis. in the west Solent. The race to Poole No. 1 Bar Buoy and return started at 07.00. As we beat down the Needles Channel the vis. significantly worsened. We never saw the Needles or Bridge buoy, we set off across Christchurch bay close hauled on port in visibility that was under 25 metres. We knew the biggest danger was probably fellow competitors so we simply kept up a good look out and played the stereo very loud - they'd hear us even if they couldn't see us!! About 4-5 miles short of Poole entrance the fog lifted in under five minutes - we could see it burning of from above as the sky over us became bluer & bluer. We could see Bournemouth, Poole Entance, Studland and the Old Harry Rocks - unfortunately the wind failed at the same time as the fog lifted and we had a very slow rounding before setting off back to the Bridge in very shifty conditions. We set and repacked the spinnaker at least twice. As we closed the Needles the vis. closed in to about 50m. Once got to the Bridge the visibility started to open out again. We saw a Bavaria 44 go right up to the Bridge buoy, presumably to confirm his position. The sight of the fog blowing over the top of Tennyson Down and falling down into Alum Bay was quite something - unfortunately I didn't have a camera to record it. We put the spinnaker up for the last time. The only oddity was at Hurst narrows where the wind died and we lost control of the boat as it was being carried into the Solent on 2-3 knots of tide and the apparent wind dropped to zero. I thought we were going to lose it to a fellow competitor who had been trying to catch us all the way since off Hengistbury head. They were right on our transom when I had this idea of turning the boat through 90 degrees and presenting the side of the keel to the tide. The look on his face was a picture as we suddenly started pulling away going sideways. The wind filled in and we carried the spinnaker all the way to the finish between Lepe and Calshot in glorious sunshine and sailing conditions. At times we were making 9 knots over the ground in a 27' boat. Fantastic race in very mixed conditions. Surprisingly I didn't worry about the fog. We made sure we had lifejackets on and kept a good look out and we made doubly sure we clipped on when leaving the cockpit. No radar - we wouldn't have had time to monitor it properly anyway in a two handed race.

Ed

 

[doris]

I would suspect that my experience is adequate, even compared with yours.
The point I was trying to make, obviously inadequately, was that when it is impossible to see anything to deliberately put your self in traffic is foolish in the extreme. I know of at least one boat on the JOG race, Electron, that retired after almost being run down despite doing all the right things.
The speed of channnel traffic has been made very public after the run down of the Moody 50, Wakuna, a while back. If peeps wish to race in those conditions then all power to their elbow. I don't believe that you were without some electronic aids, but radar has in my view become a modern necessity for those who do. Should a ROTC/JOG boat get run down by some 25kt bemoth then I can see the ramifications affecting all of us being intolerable.
By the way if you were in a collision like that with a person(s) lost I would like to hear your explanation in a coroners court!

 

[martinb]

The point that you made and I was responding to was that you thought it almost criminal that I should set out without radar and someone to constantly monitor it. It is interesting that you mention the sinking of the Moody, if I recall correctly, that sinking was radar assisted, so hardly evidence to support your case!

Regards,

Martin

 

[doris]

The Moody had no-one competent to use the radar, one of the points I made I believe. The criminality would be if you caused the demise of someone through your assumed superiority and belief in your ability to see through thick fog. I stand by my original post. Maybe when you have a bit more experience you may change your misguided view. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[plombier]

[ QUOTE ]
A combination of chart plotter so you know exactly where you are and radar on short range, both visible from the wheel is a powerful combination and monitor the port ops channels.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not the sort of conditions to have a total power failure though with such realiance on electronics. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[fireball]

Just turn yourself around slowly (not the boat, you!), shout and listen for the echo ... works for depth too - but you must keep your head underwater until you hear the ping though - otherwise you might miss it! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif