spinnaker bags - which type

[wotayottie]

we have two spinny bags available - a side launch one and a round one that sits in front of the furler on the pullpit.

what do you reckon is the best type for slick hoisting and dropping in a race? the round one makes the hoist easy, not least because the sheets / guys can be clipped on whilst its in the bag, but re-packing isnt that easy leaning forward of the furler as you bash into the waves. and in any case, what practise do you nadopt for dropping - do you trip the guy or the sheet?

but what about the side launch bag? we havent tried ours yet (foredeck man is more comfortable with what he knows) and in any case which side do you put it on - the pole or the sheet? and when you re-pack do you do this sat on the deck with the bag under the foot of the genoa.

I should explain the boat is 36 ft with a crew of 4. so whilst one man is stowing the pole and the helm and main trimmer are in the cockpit getting the boat onto the beat, there is only one man to re-pack the spinny.

it's also the case that our winter races tend to be just a couple of hours with maybe two seperate spinny legs.

 

[DJE]

I'm surprised that you can re-pack the kite on deck on a 36 footer in any breeze. We always take the bag below, re-pack down there, and bring the sail the back on deck in the bag.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Ditto DJE.

As to the side opener (what we called a turtle?) clip it onto the leeward guard rail, and launch it behind the genny, even if you're doing a gybe set. It should also have velcro tabs to retain the head, tack and clew.

 

[Ruffles]

We have a round one; the circle is made with a sail batten. It's a right pain getting it through the forehatch. On the rare occasion I'm allowed to fly the kite I tend to launch from the rail behind the genoa rather than the bow so I suspect I should make a different shaped bag. The ones I've seen look a bit like a carpet bag. Is that correct? How is the bag held open?

 

[michael_w]

Always prefer the round turtles for launching out of the pulpit. Sets faster as there is less guy to pull back and the sail gets away from the rest of the rig quicker.

Usually only available for boats with relatively small kites. My fractionaly rigged Contessa 33 had them but my current boat has to have the valise type of turtle as the sail's too big.

 

[oldsaltoz]

We used a turtle bag from the bow, tags with Velcro secured the bag to the pulpit and others held the head, tack and clue. very easy to launch.

We never tried to pack the kite on deck, depending on conditions at the time it would be pulled below via the forward hatch or from behind the boom into the companionway then re packed below decks with new bands or wool ties.

Hope this helps.

Avagoodweekend......

 

[Neil_Y]

Fix the bag into the hatch with some clips, drop or collect under genoa leward drop, stuff into bag. Carry it forewards onto the rail when you're on port and it's ready.

Make sure you pull out the guy clew and flake this on top of the rest of the kite. Before you hoist, the clew can be pulled out to the pole end, with velcro holding the rest in the bag until you're ready.

I'm currently struggling with a rather large kite in a small shute/sock/tube getting it up is OK its getting it back in the tube quick enough before it ends up in the water that seems to be the problem.

 

[dt4134]

The risk with the bag on the pulpit is that you have spells with crew weight right forward which affects performance (except perhaps in light airs).

The turtle bag should work well with planning to keep activity & time on the foredeck to the minimum.

You should certainly re-consider carefully whether you should have two crew off the rail at the same time on the beat, one to tidy up the pole & gear and the second to pack. Unless you've got a short leg on the course have one job done after the other with the crew on the rail hiking hard (if you do hiking of course).

Personally I prefer the forehatch hoist & drop. Especially if you practice it in conjunction with no-pole hoists & drops it gives you great advantages. Of course I can fully understand if you want to look after the upholstery in the forecabin.

 

[wotayottie]

You should certainly re-consider carefully whether you should have two crew off the rail at the same time on the beat, one to tidy up the pole & gear and the second to pack. Unless you've got a short leg on the course have one job done after the other with the crew on the rail hiking hard (if you do hiking of course).

I have two to start the drop - one to handle the sail and the other to stow the pole on the mast. But the latter comes back fairly quickly if only because main and genoa sheets are a bit much for one man in the cockpit.

Yes we do hike as much as possible, but three on the rail in a 7 tonne boat doesnt have much effect compared with 8 on a J109. Which incidentally, we matched to windward on Sunday in 25 - 30 kn over the deck, albeit maybe 3 to 5 degrees further off the wind / more leeway.

Personally I prefer the forehatch hoist & drop. Especially if you practice it in conjunction with no-pole hoists & drops it gives you great advantages. Of course I can fully understand if you want to look after the upholstery in the forecabin.

Can you elaborate please. Sorry to be a nuisance but there's such a lot to learn about racing when neither I nor my crew have ever crewed on a racing boat and we are trying to race our own boat

 

[dt4134]

Forehatch Hoist & Drop

Hi Wottayottie, I'll decribe how to use the forehatch then you can consider whether it suits you.

You lay out the spinnaker in the forecabin, with the foot & luff tapes run to ensure there are no twists (just like when packing before you put it in the bag). The forehatch is open with the corners of the spinnaker just sticking out. You push the hatch down over it to keep out spray but it is still open. You tie the corners together (usual sail tie with slip knot would work) and plug in the sheet & guy.

Obviously you use common sense having the forehatch open during offshore racing or heavy weather, but we've used it many times to hoist the spinnaker in F8 in inshore racing.

You also have to prepare the forecabin so that any sharp edges (e.g. door handles) are well taped off to avoid them being caught. They could either rip the spinnaker or fly through the air with the greatest of ease or both.

The forehatch hoist leads naturally to doing a no-pole hoist but it isn't compuslory. Taken together you can focus more on the approach to the windward mark, minimising the penalty of crew weight on the foredeck. Without the pole you are free to tack at any stage.

As you bear away you are free to hoist very quickly whilst the others are still faffing around with the pole. Flying a spinnaker without a pole is just an extension of what you do anyway during a gybe. Just practice it a lot.

You have to be careful tactically. Not having a pole makes you more vulnerable to being luffed, so be cautious when a boat is positioned where they can do that. Also if you're scared of poor spinnaker trim causing a broach, play safe. Depends upon how confident you are after your training sessions.

The bowman can then put the pole on at leisure. Without the stress and rush they are less likely to make mistakes.

For the drop just get a crew member down below, pass the lazy guy down and do the drop down the forehatch.

You can take the pole off before the drop which means you're ready on the beat immediately after the mark rounding. Be careful not to get the lazy genny sheet entangled when you drop the spinnaker.

You can also do a windward no-pole drop down the forehatch (which means pulling the spinnaker around the forestay and down the hatch) obviously grab the lazy sheet for the windward drop rather than the lazy guy.

The advantage of the windward drop is that it gives you the option of choosing which side to drop the spinnaker to match the side you will next hoist from, so there's no hassle swinging the gear (so the bowman spends even less time on the foredeck & can hike harder & longer)

You don't need someone down below, but it is useful with bigger crews where you can send a lighter crew member forward. In any event they are less useful where you don't have a lazy sheet & guy. In which case the crew need to stuff the spinnaker down the hatch then close the hatch to with the corners sticking out.

Obviously the halyard is not left plugged in, but the sheets and guys are.

When flying with no pole you can have a crew member at the shrouds holding out the guy. The technique is limited by the crew members strength. That's known as a human guy.

 

[tudorsailor]

Ditto DJE.

As to the side opener (what we called a turtle?) clip it onto the leeward guard rail, and launch it behind the genny, even if you're doing a gybe set. It should also have velcro tabs to retain the head, tack and clew.

Can you clarify this for me as a racing novice? What is a "gybe set"?.
Are you saying that when going upwind, but approaching a mark that will take you downwind, that you prepare the chute by hoisting it leward of the headsail. When do you round the mark, do you (quickly) furl the headsail and then pull the snuffer up to fly the cruising chute.?

When the sock is up to leward of the headsail, doesn't the sock get caught in the airflow and pulled aft?

I have a cruising chute in a NorthSail spinnaker bag that can be cliipped to the guard rail

Sorry to be so niaive - please be gentle!

TudorSailor

 

[dt4134]

Gybe Set

A gybe set is where you come around the windward mark and hoist the spinnaker as you gybe.

The sheet is on the opposite side to the bag and you have to pull most of the spinnaker out around the forestay during the hoist. Then you put the pole on.

There's a lot to think about tactically, and a couple of alternatives such as a no-pole bear-away hoist then gybe, or to actually gybe the headsail then put the pole on and hoist, which I'd call a gybe-then-set rather than a gybe set.

I've never tried it with a sock. In any even you hoist as you round the mark not before. With a symmetric spinnaker you can get the guy up to just short of the forestay foil immediately before the mark rounding. Anything more affects windward performance plus has a high probability of a snarl-up.

With an assymetric (cruising chute) I'd do a gybe-then-set as you can't get power out of the sail during the gybe the way you can with a symmetric.

 

[wotayottie]

With a symmetric spinnaker you can get the guy up to just short of the forestay foil immediately before the mark rounding. Anything more affects windward performance plus has a high probability of a snarl-up.

I'm confused. If you are jibing at the mark, how can you get the pole up to the forestay before rounding? Or do you drop the genoa / furl it first.

 

[dt4134]

I'm confused. If you are jibing at the mark, how can you get the pole up to the forestay before rounding? Or do you drop the genoa / furl it first.

If you are doing a bear away set you can pull the guy forward in the last few seconds until the windward clew of the spinnaker is just short of the luff with the spinnaker corner lying along the leeward side of the headsail. This saves you a second or so when hoisting and ensures the guy comes on quickly to blow the spinnaker away from the forestay during the hoist which reduces the chances of getting a twist in it.

For the bear away set you can do this with or without a pole although it is easier with. It is easier if the bowman helps that corner of the sail out of the bag. There's more time for him to do that if you're hoisting around the wing mark of a windward-leeward course or are certain you are going to lay the windward mark.

You can do the same with the sheet for a gybe set (of course without the pole).

The headsail is dropped (or furled) as normal after the hoist.

To be honest, unless you have an overriding tactical need to do a gybe set I wouldn't recommend doing one. Especially if you haven't practised them a lot. Traffic approaching the windward mark can cause you problems as you go away through the fleet and if you're rounding in a group you can get blanketed by their dirty air. If you want to go left on a run it is simpler to do a bear away set, get a bit of space & clean air, then gybe.