speed or distance..sailing into the wind

Nostrodamus

Nostrodamus

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Not being at the head of the queue when they handed out brain cells (even blonde Essex girls were in front of me) I sometimes have trouble working things out.

I am sure that on many occasions you have found that your intended destination has the wind pretty much on the nose meaning you will have to tack all the way there.

If you sail to close to the wind you will make more distance towards your destination but your speed will drop.

If you sail off the wind a little more then your speed will go up but you will make less ground towards your destination.

Does one have a definite advantage over the other, is it some where in between or will your arrival time be about the same?

I also suppose you would loose a little more in leeway sailing further off the wind.

I am sure there will be someone who listened to trigonometry in school who can answer this.
 
I think this is the whole basis of VMG - velocity made good - the comparision between direct but slower and further but faster. I had a graphic demo earlier this year when on one of two ostensibly the same yachts - the other yacht was tight to the wind and we were maybe 5-10 degrees off the wind and we shot past him and after about 4 miles we tacked and he was a long way behind. Unless there are other factors (trying to get round a headland or similar) I don't think it is worth being so close to the wind that you are almost pinching.

Neil
 
The effect on VMG of pointing too high can be really marked. On my old tub, I could sheet the genny in so it touches the spreaders, set the main hard in & sail on that. The sails are not flapping but boat speead drops considerably. Although I sail a shorter distance, VMG drops. If I free the genny off so it's just 6" off the spreaders, I need to adjust the course off the wind only a few degrees but boat speed increrases & although the distance does too, VMG increases.

When there are reasonable waves, the effect is even worse. Sailing as close as possible results in even lower boat speed as the sails are not generating so much force. Free off & the sails work better & the boat can punch through better. Being a tub, it doesn't have the finest of bows & therefore doesn't cut through waves too well.
 
I am going to have to read my electronics manuals this year and see what all those buttons do... I did find VMG once when I was trying to adjust the lights on the panel but didn't know what to do with it.
 
Tony Cross said:
Nostro, did you not know that gentlemen never sail to windward?
Click to expand...

I'm relieved to think that that explains why I'm not a better sailor. :rolleyes:

Many of my favourite designs aren't very weatherly. However poor my own technique, a benefit of the Osprey dinghy is that she works to windward without difficulty or complaint...but in future I expect I'll learn to regret my liking for bluff bows and high wheelhouses.
 
Hey, this year i discovered that if I press two buttons together on my auto pilot the boat sails to the wind. I still have to iron out a few of the finer points like how to use this and how to stop the damn thing beeping every ten minutes telling me there is a wind shift when there isn't.
Also after two years I found something called a position fix on my radio that sends my position and when I get a position fix from others it puts them on my chart plotter.
Another few years and I will learn how to start the engine!
 
Nostrodamus said:
I also suppose you would loose a little more in leeway sailing further off the wind.
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Lose (not loose) less, surely. But that depends on the definition being relative to the boat's heading rather than where the skipper secretly really wished to go, since that makes the meaning somewhat more objective.

Leeway is expected to increase when you pinch.

Mike.
 
Nostrodamus said:
Hey, this year i discovered that if I press two buttons together on my auto pilot the boat sails to the wind. I still have to iron out a few of the finer points like how to use this and how to stop the damn thing beeping every ten minutes telling me there is a wind shift when there isn't.
Click to expand...

Are you sure there wasn't? I think if you dive into the deep wrinkles of the manual (and it is not something to improvise without RTFM) you can increase the tolerance to wind-shift which IIRC defaults to 7 or 14 degrees or something equally magic.

Of course if the electronic compass, to which the supposed wind-shift is relative, is misbehavin,g perhaps due to excessive heel, that would give the same effect.

Mike.
 
mjcoon said:
Are you sure there wasn't? I think if you dive into the deep wrinkles of the manual (and it is not something to improvise without RTFM) you can increase the tolerance to wind-shift which IIRC defaults to 7 or 14 degrees or something equally magic.

Of course if the electronic compass, to which the supposed wind-shift is relative, is misbehavin,g perhaps due to excessive heel, that would give the same effect.

Mike.
Click to expand...

I shall have to look but I know when talking to others they seem to get the same problem. This may also be related to the Med where the wind shifts about frequently (when there is any)
 
This question is at the same time simple and vastly complicated.

It's simple because it is just a function of finding the best balance for your boat in the conditions. It's complicated because this has so many factors that entire books have been written about it.

It isn't just a matter of turning the wheel and steering a lower course, to get the most out of it you need to trim properly for the new course, and also set the boat up for height mode or power mode.

When racing we have 2 basic modes, flat water height mode, and high wind / chop power mode. In height mode we setup the boat with very little twist in either sail and then drive so that the inside telltales are just starting to lift. It's important to note that you can't come out of a tack and sail like this straight away, you need to get the boat up to speed sailing slightly low before you try and come up into this mode. If you don't you'll just go sideways.
Then when we're in power mode we put a bit of twist in boat sails and have the jib very slightly eased, then I drive to keep the telltales fully streaming. This gives us the power to get over the waves but also has other benefits.
Mainly that it's a LOT easier to drive to a boat setup with some twist as the groove is much wider and the boat more forgiving. So when cruising I would only go for that height mode if the sea was very smooth and I was going to spend some time helming. If I was setting up the boat to be driven by the autohelm I would always go for the power mode, though in light winds I might opt for a sort of half way house and not go for so much twist.
 
Add only that some boats 'go' better on one tack than the other-for x reasons- and Nostro google 'Leebowing the tide', which will give an insight into the angle of the waves caused by current and wind interplay as well, relative to your chosen tack too...
If you look back at your old Plotters tracks sailed, the info is all there too.

At the end of the day you get to know or feel what the boat likes best in particular conditions and sail set ups..

The old YM editor Des Sleightholme ( and you'd like his v dry humour quite possibly) used to explain stuff via the words spoken by various characters he invented or had met. Thus, f'instance, the comment ''she'll look at it but she won't go there...'' ( I paraphrase) meaning of course that you can sheet everything in nicely but end up slip sliding sideways too much to leeward whilst apparently hard on the wind..As a kid one used to look at the angle of the towed logline to show true leeway..and feel whether the helm was alive , sluggish or dead..
Myself I just clamp the wheel a couple of spokes 'down', trim the traveller and outhaul a bit to suit and let the boat get on with it...usually better than I!
 
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It's a lot more fun batting along, even if pinching a bit more might give greater VMG. So since fun is always shorter in duration than boredom, sail loose and free and you will (seem to) get there faster anyway..
 
RAI said:
It's a lot more fun batting along, even if pinching a bit more might give greater VMG. So since fun is always shorter in duration than boredom, sail loose and free and you will (seem to) get there faster anyway..
Click to expand...

I am always sailing loose and free but I am constantly told to put it away... the sail of course and motor. There just seem to be some tacks that you end up going 3ft toward where you want even though you have sailed for 45 minutes. Then again that is probably my sailing but it is fun.
 
Although I have been sailing for half a century, the ownership of a VMG meter caused me several surprises. In flat seas we found that you need to sail much closer to the wind than felt right, but great care was needed to avoid the boat speed falling off. In rough water, it seems necessary to concentrate more on boat speed, working the boat up into the wind slowly once an appropriate speed is reached. The old injunction to sail "full and bye" doesn't appear to apply to modern yachts.
 
What Flaming said.

The number of boat owners I speak to who have little or no idea what they should be doing with the headsail cars, outhaul, traveller, halyard tension, backstay or cunningham beggars belief. It seems many simply don't touch them, adopting a 'hoist it and sheet it' approach to sail trim, and then wonder why they can't point or punch through a chop.
 
Simondjuk said:
What Flaming said.

The number of boat owners I speak to who have little or no idea what they should be doing with the headsail cars, outhaul, traveller, halyard tension, backstay or cunningham beggars belief. It seems many simply don't touch them, adopting a 'hoist it and sheet it' approach to sail trim, and then wonder why they can't point or punch through a chop.
Click to expand...
I think you mean Wang it up tight n leave it that way for 7 months :D
 
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