Speed Limit or would No Wake Zones be better

[dpb]

Last couple of weekends have been very busy in Poole Harbour with the sea state being rougher from wash than it was out at sea.
The problem was beatifully illustrated by the chap in a sports cruiser of about 28ft who over took us less than 30ft to our starboard dragging the hugest of wakes that chucked us all over the place. Not a big problem to our 21ft-er but the waters were packed with craft including kids in their optimists, folk in small dinghies etc which could easily be swamped by such manouvers.
In responce to my slow hand clap the skipper jumped apoplectically holding up ten fingers and pointing to his speedo (I assume) as if to say the limit is 10 knots and I am doing 10 knots (which he may well have been doing). He continued to thread his way amongst other craft leaving them bobbing in his wake.
I assume that the reason for the speed limit in the first place is to reduce collisions, but unfortunately the speed chosen is the one at which many planing boats kick up the most wash.
My thoughts are that maybe a slightly higher speed limit in the high teens may allow planing boats to get on the plane thus creating less wash with may be a no or low wash rule during particularly busy times when the waters are congested.
Of course it would be nice to think that common sence would prevail with people adjusting their speed to the conditions and surroundings, unfortunately it has seemed during the last couple of weekends that common sense has been left on dry land by many.

I am not getting to grouchy am I???? /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[Searush]

In my own experience (mostly N Wales/ Menai Straits) there are those who don't need rules, because they are gentlemen and those who ingore rules because they are thugs.

In other words, the people who obey rules are generally well behaved anyway and seldom behave badly. The people for whom the rules are designed don't give a toss and ignore them anyway.

This is why our Olympic Pistol team has to practice in France while we have increasing levels of handgun crime following the knee-jerk gun laws passed following Dunblane.

No Doubt the drink sailing laws will have a similar (lack of?) impact!!

 

[duncan]

this is exactly why we avoid the rush periods and go round through Blood Alley if tides permit (which is a no wake zone).

whilst 10 knots is a safety limit the regulations in Poole Harbour also make reference to dangerous wakes; however pick any speed up to 20 knots and you will simply move the problem not remove it.

as already highlighted (many many times on here and in this thread) there are those that are considerate and those that will never be so.

c'est la vie

 

[RogerRat]

To be or not to be I thought was the question (sorry) but while on yours.

I agree with you wake is nearly always the problem. Chi entrance on Monday was awful and some poor bar-steward was under tow in a crappy 'Westerly' saily boat by a largish sailing cat. Plonkers of the highest order threw them all over the place and the (too) light weight tow-line was snatching like mad.

I'm all for coming in quickly when it's quiet but some of theses channels get extremely crowded and wake can cause problems if in close quarters. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

A few weeks ago, we were in Beaulieu river and ribs were going by at over 20 knots but their wake was minimal, but at 10 knots they were a bloody nuisance! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Agree about the gun laws, school kids can get them now but shooting clubs and gunsmiths have been ruined! Unbelievable really isn't it? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[[2068]]

I can still remember when there was NO speed limit in Poole harbour. That was much scarier: seeing 5 abreast 40fters coming up the main channel towards you at 25kts was something to behold /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Also, the larger mobos tend to stick to the main channels. Smaller stuff (dinghies etc) can go pretty much anywhere, but it is still inconsiderate to pass close by smaller boats throwing a big wake.

dv.

 

[D3B]

Surely this about common sense and good manners.
I went to Burnham for the weekend and enjoyed a sail aboard Full Circle during race week and experienced what happens whan a sqaddie goes past 50 yds away just off the plane.

the fairway has an 8 kt speed limit but i felt that was to fast for the moored boats and held my speed to 5.5 kts which gives small wash.
when i reached the speed limit marker there were few boats about so blatted off at 30 kts until i met some of the racing fleet. i could have gone across the front of several of the smaller dinghy/squib type boats at speed but knew that would have been uncomfortable for them so slowed and went astern.....i got a very nice thank you wave.

i realise that the east coast raggies and mobo's get on a lot better than the solent but it only takes a kind word in someones ear.....on both sides...that someone must know who is being a prat!

 

[DAKA]

The one and only time I have gone through Poole at 10 knots was on an RYA cruise with 40 other boats, we were under instruction of an RYA instructor, the wash was unbelievable but handled easier if we too did as instructed and maintained 10 knts.

 

[SnaxMuppet]

Many people reading this thread will be saying "oh no... not him again. Can't he shut up about this wake thing?"... well, perhaps so... but it IS a much bigger issue than most people will accept.

Read my thread here...

Dbp, we already have No Wake areas. Everywhere I go there is a No Wake rule along with the speed limit but the fact is that most people don't think it is important. It isn't even important enough to put on the speed signs! If you read my thread you will see that many posts simply want to accept the fact that wake exists and say that we should "chill out"!

I have done a bit of boating in Florida and they don't focus on the speed... they say "NO WAKE" and they mean it with on the spot fines and the possible confiscation of the boat! Yes, it DOES happen! I am not saying that no one ever creates a wake in a no wake zone, but it is very much not the done thing. There are a lot more small boats there and that may be the key. More people are seriously affected by wake. Here the majority of boaters are in bigger boats so it doesn't affect them. Ergo... they don't care.

Well, as I said in my thread, enforcement IS a big problem here but that is only because it is not considered a problem worth dealing with here. We just seem to accept it as "one of those things that just happens".

It isn't "one of those things that just happens".... it is "one of those things that people do". They do it because they don't get stopped - simple as that.

Dpb... don't expect much support here on the forum nor anywhere else in the UK boating world. Apparently, we should just accept it.

Well I don't just accept it. I tell people to slow down and take the abuse. We should all do the same instead of just accepting it as "one of those things".

No you are not getting grouchy... just speaking sense.

I have no idea how this complacency can be combatted. No idea at all.

 

[oceanfroggie]

No wake zones rather than speed limits is the way to go.

A fast speed boat, rib or jetskit creates no appreciable wake on the plane, whereas a large cruiser at 10kts is digging the biggest hole possible (ie ploughing and not in displacement mode). Sports cruisers 20-30ft often slow from 30kt speeds to 10kt thinking they are crawling and helping, but a 10kt wake is almost at max, they'd be better passing at 30kt than 10kt. Displacement means displacement and that's 6-7kt for most mobo's. You don't need more unenforced rules, you need more gentlemen. Education perhaps even if some give fingers in response.

 

[Kawasaki]

[ QUOTE ]
In my own experience (mostly N Wales/ Menai Straits) there are those who don't need rules, because they are gentlemen and those who ingore rules because they are thugs.

In other words, the people who obey rules are generally well behaved anyway and seldom behave badly. The people for whom the rules are designed don't give a toss and ignore them anyway.

This is why our Olympic Pistol team has to practice in France while we have increasing levels of handgun crime following the knee-jerk gun laws passed following Dunblane.

No Doubt the drink sailing laws will have a similar (lack of?) impact!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Para one ,I agree with, Para two amazes, I didn't know that!.
Para three, I,m not sure about.
Don't know about You but I have not witnessed any evidence of booze creating probs on the Water in Our kneck of the Woods.

Where Me and Searush float (Menai Straits and round about) there are two speed limits.
Trouble is, the current can be a bit ferocious at times.
So a Mobo could be adhering to the 5 kt bits , over the ground but in reality He could be doing 12 ref the wake created.
IE in semi displacement mode in all reality and all that goes with it.
OK , Mobo Man should use No1 eyeball method and realise what the Script is, trouble is there are a lot Dosy Gits out there.

Back to "Our kneck of the Woods" for a Mo.
We have 2 "indicated" (yellow bouys, 5 mph says on em) areas , by Port Dinorwic and Caernarfon.
I know most peeps won't know or can,t Picture those Places but One is (PD) in an Area with lots of Moorings a Marina Basin plus approaches to a Lock for the inner Harbour.
Tother one "protects" a string of moorings approaching the Town of Caernarfon as One sails South , ish.
The daft thing is there are no indicated or "Charted" speed limits in other Areas of the Straits about Menai Bridge (Pier, lots of moorings and activity) and Beaumaris , which has similar activity plus an active sailing club and Trips round the Bay and back in tme for Tea, goings on!
We also have Plas Menai (Water Sports Centre For Wales) in between Port Dinorwic and Caernarfon. Hereabouts all sorts of little saily boats and bigger saily boats and small learner Mobos are swishing about all Year round.
It's a bit like a Mini Solent sometimes.
OK peeps should be aware of moorings, Pleasure trips, peeps in dinghies trying to board boats on swinging moorings with wind over tide buggering the Job up.
Pleasure boats with Passengers alighting de blah de blah.
Unfortunately they dont.
The Areas of the Straits which have an indicated speed limit, one of which is Patrolled by The Harbour Trust during the Summer Months(What Summer?) are not particullarly busy!
Tiss the places mentoned earlier that coul do with some Control but there aint any, Officially!!
Major Catastrophe and I have this Conversation regularly.
A Planing Hull on its optimum angle of dangle will cause less in the way of wash than if it was chuntering along at 5 kts pushing three to 7 kts of current.
Ok, I know I know, We don,t want peeps dashing about amongst moorings etc at 20 kts.
The worst offenders for that are the PWC folk.
Fair play to Waterskiers in our bit, they seem to manage to play in ares that are suitable and don't give much concern.
So We have this amazing stretch of Water to play in with confusing By laws/ rules and potential danger.
Confusing enough place that it is for Visitors particularly and quite a few Locals don't know what's going on.
Speed limits per se ,aren't the Answer, tiss an awereness , Education thinghy again.
Too much speed in and around crowded moorings etc etc and too much wash are the probs.
Education not restriction is the Answer.
How do We sort that out?
Dunno.
Over to more Educated peeps on ere than Me!

 

[hlb]

It has to be a speed limit. Most folk have no idea of wash, besides everyones oppinion of wash is different. Ten knots is just stupid for anything other than ships.

So, in areas where wash is a big problem. 6K or maybe 5k, up to 8knot's. After that, you might as well do 30 knots. It dont make any difference.

In Plymouth, it's more about slowing big ships down. Nothing to do with wash.

 

[Kawasaki]

Yes My Point.
Speed limit 5 kts or whatever.
Current 7 = Wash.
Wash = Wake = Nuisance.
Ships? I see No Ships?
Only Ships We see nowadays are 3 Dirty Big Mussel dredgers.
Big Boat Big Wash Big Tides.
I see Your point however ref Plymouth and big ships but if You re read dpb's Post it refers to small boats, not big ships.
His post also refers to the Prob of Wake.
Plus the prob of tossers going too fast.
You may have a Prob in Plymouth with big ships slowing down and nowt to do with wash, as You put it.
dpb is concerened about peeps in dinghies and kids in Optomists and the like.
Generally peeps in crowded areas mucking about in small boats etc etc.
The wash factor that upsets and all that goes with it.
Hence the Origional question.
Speed or Wake?
Ships (whatever size they start at, that's another thread!) Or does anybody want a Definition?
Definition of a Ship Or Large boat.
"That Tw%t in that Large Boat/ Ship, should have slowed down to 5 kts or somewhere in that region Mabel, look at the Wash That Ship/ Boat's created, I can,t get in Me Dinghie, there should be a speed limit. There is George, I think He is going fairley slow, but Cripes there is a big Tide running" Said Mabel.
Fair Play to Mabel. ( just completed Dazed Kipper, had Mabel!)
Education. that's what it's all about!

Ok Ok I hear You!
Taint about going on Courses, it's about going afloat and Experience and learning as You Go and all that there.
The Prob Does exist.
Solution?
Everybody at 5 kts over the Ground then.
Cept Racing Cats ,Yachts and Dinghies.
Which go like Dingbats.
Was chuntering along the Other Day when a Hobbie Cat? or summatt whizzed past (12 kts in a 5 kt area?)
Then a couple of His Mates, swish zoom zoom, swish, nearly had me Gel Coat scratched!
There should be a Speed Limit for those Guys! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Sneds]

Surely its simply a case of good manners and, dare I say, seamanship?
Causing another boat to ride your wake is not only ignorant but dangerous!
Unfortunately there will allways be people who don't give a damn about others so wave at them to slow down is my answer, and if you get two fingers instead of an apologetic wave....just shake your head and hope to shame them.
We once got swamped by a larger boat passing astern of us, in accordance with the regs, but very close and very fast, causing us to ship a load of water over the back and stalling the engine! What a prat, called him up on the VHF and he asked "what the problem was" when I explained he apologised and admitted he had no idea of the effect of his wake on us.
Hopefully, at least one, now educated.

 

[Kawasaki]

Yep, as you say and I said earlier tiss a Case of Good Manners and as You say Seamanship.
To hang on to Your Last Word---
educated.
Education is the answer.
How to implement is the Question.

 

[gjgm]

I m with HLB.. speed you can measure easily, wake is subjective.. and thats the issue. Wake depends on speed and hull design. First 18ft boat we had kicked up a wake higher than the hull at 8 knts, it seemed.
I m not going to advocate terrorising small kids in tiny sailing boats, but neither would I advocate every powerboat should travel at rowing speed because there is a dinghy within 100 m metres. It relies on everyone being aware of who is around them and taking reasonable steps not to put anyone in any danger. If you are in a small boat and know there are a large nunber of powerboats about, I think you expect some wake. It relies on awareness, but perhaps not many on a 40ft flybridge have been down on an Optimist recently. I guess it comes with general boating experience and some people are better judges( or more aware) than others.

 

[Lakesailor]

[ QUOTE ]
Surely its simply a case of good manners and, dare I say, seamanship?


[/ QUOTE ] That is my point in my Pedestrian Colregs Thread
If people are too dense or have never been taught manners in everyday life, you can't expect them to show any consideration when using a boat.

 

[SnaxMuppet]

I disagree with hlb that it has to be speed. It should be wake first and then speed. Signs should be NO WAKE in big letters and the max speed in smaller letters underneath... not the other way around. The focus should be on wake not speed everywhere. Until we get the focus changed people will always focus on the speed element and not the wake and justify their wake by virtue of the fact that they are within the speed limit.

In Florida NO WAKE meant no wake regardless of your speed. In actual fact, No Wake also had speed limits too but that was never really spoken about and always in smaller letters on the sign. People never said "what is the speed limit?" they simply said "Is this a no wake zone"... easy. They now know exactly what to do.

The arguement that wake is subjective is true but a weak one as an excuse not to use it as a criterion for regulation. On the road you can be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention, for careless/wreckless driving and for dangerous driving ALL of which are subjective. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to work out if a wake is big enough to have the potential to cause damage or be dangerous.

Let's face it... a fair number of smaller boats don't have a log or GPS and so don't know how fast they are going and so they have no way of complying with a speed limit. Every boat operator, regardless of whether they have a means of measuring their speed can look back and determine if they are kicking up a wake. If we are going to make speed limits enforceable then we must also make it compulsory to have a speed measuring device on board. I don't think so.

No, what I believe is wrong is the culture we have is wrong. We have a "Speed Limits" culture where we should really have "No Wake" one. That very change alone places the focus and emphasis and awareness on the wake and not the speed. At the moment the wake is just something that happens when they obey the speed limit.

It needs authorities to change their signs and bylaws so that "Speed Limit Zones" become "No Wake Zones". The speed limit can still be in place but in smaller lettering.

With a change in signing and an improvement in education it could improve things considerably IMO.

 

[Chris_d]

No it has to be no wake, no wake means NO WAKE its that simple, a speed limit really has to be different for every type of boat. This is what happens in Poole harbour, peeps do 10knts and think they are obeying the rules, so you can't touch them. In fact most seem to think they are still on the M27 so 70 limit means 80 is ok, so likewise 10knts means 12/13 is fine as well.

I agree with Arny, if you go to the states it works, everybody just obeys the rule.

 

[rickp]

This topic is becoming like any thread on speed cameras - write only.

Rick

 

[Chris_d]

"write only" not sure what you mean /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

But I think that is exactly what we don't want isn't it, unless somebody invents a wake camera I suppose /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif