Speed limit in Chi Harbour 8 knots for everyone?

[ricky_s]

Last year the harbour master of Chichester Harbour told me the 8 knot limit is for boats under power but looking at the LNTM for this year it says

"Attention is drawn to the speed limit of 8 knots which is in force for the whole of Chichester Harbour. "

Does that mean the rules have changed and it now applies to boats under sail?

 

[Richard Shead]

Last year the harbour master of Chichester Harbour told me the 8 knot limit is for boats under power but looking at the LNTM for this year it says

"Attention is drawn to the speed limit of 8 knots which is in force for the whole of Chichester Harbour. "

Does that mean the rules have changed and it now applies to boats under sail?

Sadly that will never happen, take a moth or a decent cat and that will cream well above 8 knots (and rightly so) I cant see how they would enforce it?

 

[Seajet]

Think of it without bias for a moment; sailing boats likely to beat 8 knots are almost certainly specialised dinghies.

They have no speed log readout; they do not create excessive wash, they do not particularly endanger any other boats with regard to impact, which is likely to be bad news for them ( coming to a sudden stop with one's feet in ankle hoops is a recipe for an ambulance ride ) - and they don't have whirling prop's to mince unseen low / capsized boats or people in the water, quite possibly hidden by a flared bow.

To get onto such boats, the occupants will have to be skilled and have their wits about them; this is seen as in direct contrast to any fool being able to open a throttle.

HOWEVER, before you jump on me, I used to crew one of the sailing projectiles in Chichester Harbour ( my own 1960's 'Osprey' sailing dinghy was say 2/3rds as fast, much better handling, and didn't attract attention - which some may think a snag ! ) .

The owner of this boat knew all the racing marks and tactics, but didn't have a clue regarding channel marker buoys; several times I remember shooting past a buoy which I, as a cruiser type as well, knew we were on the wrong side of, and just had time to say " Err..! " before we hit something nasty like Chichester spit in a big, expensive way.

To be honest I can't defend the 'Jaimies' ( everyone seemed to be called Jaimie when I was there, I'm not ! ) but do please bear in mind the above proviso's that people-mincing machinery is not involved, and crews have no readout of speeds; when blinded by spray and struggling to stay upright, let alone compete in a race, not many people will have a clue of their speed.

I believe some sailing dinghies and / or windsurfers HAVE been prosecuted or at least warned by the Harbour staff.

I could mention the thread here with someone boasting of doing 37 knots IN Poole Harbour; I know Poole well, and am unaware of a safe place to do that - if THAT boat hit something or someone, it would be much like an exocet driven by mincers...

Sailing dinghies aren't going to be banned from Chichester Harbour, but some consideration would be an idea, ( the projectiles bother other sailing boats too you know ! ) as there is no obvious seperate space where they could go I suppose it must be a case of 'education re' other people's needs', on both 'sides' ?

 

[Searush]

If any moBo'ers really want to exceed the speed limit, there's nowt stopping them buying, hmm, say a Sydney Harbour Skiff & sailing that with a few pals.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ilQ-mLjjcaE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Only a small clip, at around 40 secs in, but it illustrates the style.

Sorry, I can't remember the code for embedding videos - and will probably never use it again, so don't worry about trying to tell me!

 

[Richard Shead]

Being

from the Thames I always found cruising about 3 knots in a mobo used to do the trick, you were as slow as the oppies (spelling) and often surrounded so had no where to go....

What ever happens if you are a mobo or a sailboat not racing if you stray into the "zone" you will be frowned upon regardless...its all about airspace really.

Its like gliding around LHR....

 

[Greenheart]

We live in a real world, don't we?

Dinghies are surely only designed to be quick as possible, or quicker? The chance of a dinghy crew being penalised for succeeding in speed, is no more probable than cyclists picking up points on their driving licences for shifting it, downhill? All the years, and all the misbehaviour I can recall on the road or afloat, I never encountered police with so little sense of humour.

 

[strakeryrius]

I could mention the thread here with someone boasting of doing 37 knots IN Poole Harbour; I know Poole well, and am unaware of a safe place to do that

You obviously haven't been down for a while then, or in the "off" season when its too cold for the raggies and dinghy sailors to go out.

'til April 1st there's no speed limit in the main channels of the harbour, mainly because there's virtually no traffic most of the time, so its a good place to try out boats that have had major engine works done, as mine had. No boasting intended, just contributing in the context of that thread.

 

[AndieMac]

If any moBo'ers really want to exceed the speed limit, there's nowt stopping them buying, hmm, say a Sydney Harbour Skiff & sailing that with a few pals.

Got to admit Steve, these are fun looking boats. They run a Grand Prix series that is popular with TV audiences all over the country, very impressive to watch, and no doubt heaps of skill to operate correctly.

 

[Seajet]

It's a case with skiffs and their smaller but still powerful offspring International 14's etc - scourge of Itchenor , of 'steering to keep under the rig', one really DOES have to steer the boat to keep from letting the load of the rig get out from under you - mobo people with horsepower in mind, it's difficult to describe, but this is serious power, rather like a rocket powered tea trolley ( I did mention my graceful Osprey handled better ! )

Letting any aysmmetrical forces get away, with not only the centre of effort of the sails and the centre of lateral effort underwater foils but in this case the drive / thrust of both out beyond the crew / hull's moments - control is very quickly punished...

Maybe worth pointing out that the more radical a high performance sailing boat gets - and I think the same for motor boats ? - the quicker to accelerate and achieve high speeds, also the quicker to decelerate with drastic trim changes to say the least; which in the case of both power and sail is getting towards the handling characteristics of, and indeed taking on, hydrofoils...

 

[gjgm]

I dont particularly disagree with you, but one might wonder if this is conducive to safe boating for all?
"crews have no readout of speeds; when blinded by spray and struggling to stay upright, let alone compete in a race".
In fact it sounds more like irrresponsibility to me.

 

[Talulah]

I have seen some very near misses where the racing dinghies have sailed at reckless speeds through the anchored boats and just missed a swimmer.

 

[yesod]

I have seen some very near misses where the racing dinghies have sailed at reckless speeds through the anchored boats and just missed a swimmer.

that point has been made to the chichester hm yet they persist in not restricting dinghies in the main anchoring areas. regardless of the lack of mincing props, a fast dinghy hitting you in the head is going to kill you. i truly hope that doesn't happen but if it does - the intransigence of chichester harbour master must make them liable in part...

 

[ricky_s]

that point has been made to the chichester hm yet they persist in not restricting dinghies in the main anchoring areas. regardless of the lack of mincing props, a fast dinghy hitting you in the head is going to kill you. i truly hope that doesn't happen but if it does - the intransigence of chichester harbour master must make them liable in part...

The reason I started this thread is because the old harbour master is no longer with us so maybe the rules have changed?

 

[DAKA]

that point has been made to the chichester hm yet they persist in not restricting dinghies in the main anchoring areas. regardless of the lack of mincing props, a fast dinghy hitting you in the head is going to kill you. i truly hope that doesn't happen but if it does - the intransigence of chichester harbour master must make them liable in part...

Agreed and also gigm's comment about unsafe speeds.
There are two ways to combat it........

a) we can all write a letter pointing out the dangers.
I have already sent an email 2 years ago about this.
As soon as there is an incident we can send copies of our letters to the investigation team showing how callously biased the HM is towards sailing.

b) cancel your rip off harbour dues and register your 2.9m dinghy which carries the same name as your boat, cost £3.50
you get the same harbour disc to attach to the port stern

 

[Seajet]

I'm no fan of Chichester HM ( lots of money for doing sod all apart from high speed wazzing about with girlfriends, nav' marks left unmaintained unless right by Itchenor ) but exactly how are they going to 'restrict' dinghies ?

For really bad offenders the sail number is a serious clue, but I've never heard of anyone killed or even hurt by a sailing dinghy; I've been present in the aftermath on two occasions when people were hit by the prop's of speedboats, a type of craft which attracts the clueless - no offence to RB Coomer & other sensible users, but they will know what I mean.

The people hit by props were indeed lucky to survive, horrible injuries.

The comment that fast dinghies proceeding without instruments and in hairy conditions is irresponsible defies the fact that just to operate a fast boat requires a lot of skill, without which Darwin will ensure that clueless speed freaks will get very wet without going anywhere !

I do agree that there is a disparity on some occasions between boat handling skills, and seamanship; that is where the problem needs to be addressed.

The problem facing this ( and harbourmasters anywhere ) is that you are dealing with a minor version of 'fighter pilots' in mentality; young, successful, and quite possibly arrogant !

Combine that with the atmosphere of long established clubs, often trying to assume unwarranted elitism, and it is very difficult to get a message like 'know your nav' marks and consider others' through...

In the example of Chichester HM, how far do you think he'd get if he started having a go at the local clubs who he will be on friendly drinkies terms with ?

In this day of camera phones and youtube etc, - quite a few careers have been wrecked by people doing daft things then finding themselves on the internet - I can only suggest filming anyone you think may be in the wrong, and presenting this to the relevant harbour staff; if that doesn't work, send the material to a few marine insurers !

Note that when an idiot mobo published shots of leaving a huge wake in a quiet river subject to a speed limit, the local harbourmaster spotted it here and issued a warning.

In a perfect world, the RYA or harbour staff would offer seminars in seamanship, for ALL craft capable of high speeds, and in a perfect world they'd be attended by all the people who ought to go !

 

[Seajet]

Ricky S,

this problem - if it is a real one - has been ongoing for many years, nothing to do with any particular personalities.

If 'policing by amateur bystanders' camera or account' is to come in, it might be fair to ask for mobo's to have large identifying names or numbers, as they can tend to look the same especially when high-tailing out of a harbour at high speed; sailing boats know they can be identified by their sail numbers, and cannot disappear up a slipway quickly as their rig is both easily spotted and takes time to remove !

 

[benjenbav]

I spent 9 years based in Chichester with sail and power boats. I always thought that the key was working out what the other types of user were likely to do and dealing accordingly. Part of the charm of the place. I also found the HM's staff helpful and I remain a member of the Friends of Chichester Harbour. (Well it's a life membership so it's nice when they write and confirm I am still a member. )

 

[Greenheart]

A technical solution?

How about changing the law, so every boat requiring insurance, also legally has to have a GPS transponder? Maybe not this year or next, but as someone said, the speed issue isn't new, nor likely to change soon.

I'm no techie; I can live happily without any voltage on board. But as I understand it, GPS transponders would both identify recklessly over-driven vessels, show their position in relation to others, beyond any denial afterwards; they'd also save lives in storm situations, and provided transponders were lodged deep in the fabric of the hull during manufacture, theft of boats mightn't go un-noticed, so often.

I know they're not cheap yet, but nor was my 1980s Walkman, compared to my iPod Shuffle. Just a thought.

 

[ChrisE]

How about changing the law, so every boat requiring insurance, also legally has to have a GPS transponder? Maybe not this year or next, but as someone said, the speed issue isn't new, nor likely to change soon.

I'm no techie; I can live happily without any voltage on board. But as I understand it, GPS transponders would both identify recklessly over-driven vessels, show their position in relation to others, beyond any denial afterwards; they'd also save lives in storm situations, and provided transponders were lodged deep in the fabric of the hull during manufacture, theft of boats mightn't go un-noticed, so often.

I know they're not cheap yet, but nor was my 1980s Walkman, compared to my iPod Shuffle. Just a thought.

Over-driven? That might work for a mobo in a hrbr but on a dinghy....

 

[Greenheart]

...still no techie...

...as I said, I'm far from expert...but as I understand it, a transponder will let out a regular blip, visualizable on a chart, and recoverable if it were needed as proof of position/bearing/liability later. I don't think the type of vessel it's attached to, will make a difference.

The point must be, to dissuade every boat's helm/sailing master of the necessity to avoid collision/running down swimmers, etc. If we all knew that our exact place and pace could be reviewed - I know, not always good for individual freedom - but wouldn't you steer and reef/throttle back, with more thought for safety?