Southerly models - overview

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Hi,
New here and not sure if this is the right place to place this question.

I’ve searched the forum and the internet and I was wondering if anyone could give me a brief over of the various models. I see 95, 100, 105, 115, 135. Then others that appear to be linked to the length in feet. An understanding of their earlier naming convention would be great.

I dream of being able to live aboard for long periods at some point in my life and Southerlies strike me as eventually being the right boat for my needs. I’m an avid dinghy sailor who wants to take my non sailing Mrs away with me. I plan to start by getting something small in the next couple of years, under £5000, that I can leave on cheap swinging mud mooring (probably a small 23-27 foot twin keeler) to stay weekends on. To then hopefully upgrade, Mrs permitting, to a larger swing keel for longer periods in semi retirement. Usual dreams of cruising the UK, North sea, Baltic English Channel and make my way to the Med. Maybe even further afield if life and finances permit it. A centre cockpit Southerly looks ideal and hopefully a semi decent one will become affordable in 10-15 years time.
Thanks for the advise
Manuel

 

[Wansworth]

Your plan seems eminently prudent and doable Make sure you take your wife a long with you and she partakes of the dream.In 10 years what are now quite old Southerlies are going to be older so plan on maybe a new engine and large refit.

 

[Mistroma]

I'm pretty certain that you will find more detailed information elsewhere but have jotted down some general points.

Ignoring the 28 which was completely different, more like a triple keel with lifting plate and poorer finish. Relatively deeper draft.

You are more interested in 95,105,115,135,100 etc. as these had the shallower draft hull, proper lifting keel and grounding plate. Naming convention is pretty simple and relates to LOA in metres, 95 is about 9.5m and so on. The length figure is only a rough guide, the 95 is more like 9.7m. I think that they only counted the hull and ignored the pullpit, perhaps even the hanging rudder.

Differences relating to design changes are more important. You will see references to Mk1 and Mk2 but easiest way to tell is often to look at the stern and rudder design.

Early versions were reported to have somewhat clunky keels which did not have a bushed bearing. I used to hear reports that they would go clunk each time you tacked. I never experienced this and believe it would only affect a few very early 1979 hulls. Certainly OK by hull 25 in 1980.

The rear keel lifting bracket was another weak point as early models had a complex casting on the rear section. These would all have failed by 1985 and been replaced with a bolt on bracket. Not certain when the design changed, certainly after 1980. The new bracket was much better and likely to last about 20 years.

Early models had a lifting rudder which could slide up to manoeuvre in shallow water. It would normally sit lower than the bottom of the hull and a lifting mechanism was needed to prevent damage. Southerly decided it would be safer to fit a small rudder under a retroussé stern. This meant that the rudder was always protected but also too small to work effectively.

Lifting rudder versions tended to sail better, though heavy on the helm at times. Fixed rudder version tended to stall easily, making it harder to sail to windward without rounding up into the wind.

Southerly then introduced a twin rudder setup to improve matters. This worked but introduced new problems with 2 rudders sitting well off the centreline.

1) More exposed to damage
2) Not able to use prop wash to turn at low speed
3) More complexity in system

 

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Hi,
Mistroma. Thanks for the insights. Much appreciated. If I may take advantage of your invaluable knowledge I’ve added some questions in BLUE to your response.

I'm pretty certain that you will find more detailed information elsewhere but have jotted down some general points.

Ignoring the 28 which was completely different, more like a triple keel with lifting plate and poorer finish. Could you kindly elaborate? Was it just the build quality, or is sailabilty an issue too. Seeing that the sailing qualities of the older versions appear to not be at the top of a Southerly owner’s priority list! would this matter? Relatively deeper draft.

You are more interested in 95,105,115,135,100 etc. as these had the shallower draft hull, proper lifting keel and grounding plate. Naming convention is pretty simple and relates to LOA in metres, 95 is about 9.5m and so on. The length figure is only a rough guide, the 95 is more like 9.7m. I think that they only counted the hull and ignored the pullpit, perhaps even the hanging rudder.

Differences relating to design changes are more important. You will see references to Mk1 and Mk2 but easiest way to tell is often to look at the stern and rudder design.

Early versions were reported to have somewhat clunky keels which did not have a bushed bearing. I used to hear reports that they would go clunk each time you tacked. I never experienced this and believe it would only affect a few very early 1979 hulls. Certainly OK by hull 25 in 1980.

The rear keel lifting bracket was another weak point as early models had a complex casting on the rear section. These would all have failed by 1985 and been replaced with a bolt on bracket. Not certain when the design changed, certainly after 1980. The new bracket was much better and likely to last about 20 years.

Early models had a lifting rudder which could slide up to manoeuvre in shallow water. I’ve searhed but don’t seem to be able to find any for sale like this. It would normally sit lower than the bottom of the hull and a lifting mechanism was needed to prevent damage. Southerly decided it would be safer to fit a small rudder under a retrousse stern. This meant that the rudder was always protected but also too small to work effectively.

Lifting rudder versions tended to sail better, though heavy on the helm at times. Fixed rudder version tended to stall easily, making it harder to sail to windward without rounding up into the wind. Why did’t they just add a transom hung rudder with a pivoting/swing blade (like on numerous sailing dinghies) that just lifts when knocked...? Seems an easy solution! or am I over simplifying it...?

Southerly then introduced a twin rudder setup to improve matters. This worked but introduced new problems with 2 rudders sitting well off the centreline. Don’t the later models have the grounding plate too?

1) More exposed to damage
2) Not able to use prop wash to turn at low speed
3) More complexity in system

 

[RupertW]

Your thoughts on shallow draft sounds ideal for your initial sailing, but I would consider changing boat types radically as you change cruising styles and grounds. All types can manage pretty much all cruising grounds but some fit perfectly and some have compromises.

As an example for the West Country and the Med shallow draft has few advantages for most sailing, but a keel that will power you through an upwind sail has a lot of upsides. Then if you do eventually go to the Med you will see there is a very different style of boat which is popular because it is perfectly designed for the conditions, e.g. White topsides and hull to avoid soaking up heat, a walkthrough stern far better than centre cockpit as it is your front door when tied up, and a big cockpit with a good dining table as that's where you will be living. Downstairs is for cooking and sleeping.

 

[Mistroma]

Southerly 28
Last time I looked closely was around 1984. I distinctly remember crossing it off my list for many reasons
The finish was worse than the S95 and it looked a lot cruder
Inside layout was nowhere near as good as the 95 (Later ones might have been better)
It didn't have the extreme shallow draft capability of larger Southerlies (for the size)
I think it was 0.85m draft with plate up and the S95 was 0.55m (or 2'10" vs. 1'10")
I think it was more a plate than a keel and I remember stub keels either side, so more like a triple keel
I was told it did not sail well at all and that the S95 was a lot better. I bought an S95 about a year later.
Older than S95, probably early '70s instead of '80s

Sliding rudder
Any S95 will have a sliding rudder (unless an owner did a very silly major bodge)
S105 had this initially, I think later models (MkII) went to something similar to small fixed rudder on S100.
Only the older boats will have this feature. Later ones will be fixed and more modern models have twin rudders.

I was always pretty happy with the way she sailed. Not a racing boat (unless you are smoking something strange). I remember overhauling an Island Packet 38 of N.Ireland once. They are also pretty slow but I could see he wasn't too pleased.

She went better than expected in F3-4. In fact, I entered the cruising category for the local regatta a few weeks after my first sail. I had no clue about handicap, described her as a motorsailer and was given a generous handicap. I should have sandbagged a bit. The race officer came over after the race and said it was the first time ever that he'd re-handicapped a boat twice during the same race. Not certain how legal that was as I didn't race but he said I'd have won by a truly staggering margin on the original handicap.


Picture of my old S95 taken in 1985 and showing the rudder in raised position.

Why not use a rudder with a pivoting blade?
I'm guessing it was a matter of scale. I could just lift an S95 rudder after removing it from the stern. I couldn't considered lifting anything larger. The forces involved would be a lot higher than those from a small dinghy rudder. The sliding design was strong enough when fully lowered and most of it was out of the water when raised and subject to little drag. I remember the S95 rudder being close to 2m tall.

Grounding plate
Yes, the S28 is the only oddball and all others have the same design of grounding plate.

 

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Mistroma,
Brilliant thanks...
and now you’re a Jeanneau 42 DS convert....?

 

[Mistroma]

Mistroma,
Brilliant thanks...
and now you’re a Jeanneau 42 DS convert....?

Yes, but I still miss the lifting keel. I remember thinking that the boat next to me was chancing his arm near the Meadulse rocks. I was pretty certain I was clear but had the keel up a tiny bit just in case. I went about and looked back to see him dead in the water. The Scotsman had a really nice picture of them high and dry the next day. I faked a few people out as well in the odd race by commenting on their courage and pointed out my lifting keel when they said they'd be OK if I was. Keel fully down of course, but they weren't certain and chickened out.

 

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Hi Rupert,
Thanks for the considerations. Some further thoughts...

Your thoughts on shallow draft sounds ideal for your initial sailing, but I would consider changing boat types radically as you change cruising styles and grounds. All types can manage pretty much all cruising grounds but some fit perfectly and some have compromises.

As an example for the West Country and the Med shallow draft has few advantages for most sailing, but a keel that will power you through an upwind sail has a lot of upsides.I can agree with you on that Then if you do eventually go to the Med you will see there is a very different style of boat which is popular because it is perfectly designed for the conditions, e.g. White topsides and hull to avoid soaking up heat agree, a walkthrough stern far better than centre cockpit as it is your front door when tied up, and a big cockpit with a good dining table as that's where you will be livingNot entirely in agreement about that one, but I do understand the advantages. However, I've lived in the Med (not aboard a boat) for 25 years, and it gets damn cold out of season. In the height of summer I don't really want to be stern to in over crowded marinas, I'd prefer to be at anchor or even perhaps enjoying a pleasant English summer on dry land, a centre cockpit for most of the time for 2 is fine and my Mrs would really appreciate a comfortable master cabin and a great layout below... just food for thought.... Downstairs is for cooking and sleeping.

regards
Manuel

 

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Mistroma of Gair - Mike
Now I understand... http://www.mistroma.com/
thanks
M

 

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Mistroma of Gair - Mike
Now I understand... http://www.mistroma.com/
thanks
M

Mike,
Nice boat. You can't beach it. But has many of the pluses that Rupert was inferring to.

May have to buy it from you if I ever make it to the med.


Plus I found some extra info on your old Southerly http://www.mistroma.com/MistromaOriginal/Index.html
great.... not much on the rudder though...

 

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Southerly 28
Sliding rudder
Any S95 will have a sliding rudder (unless an owner did a very silly major bodge)
S105 had this initially,

Hi Mistroma,
I found a S 100. https://www.boatshop24.co.uk/sailboat/southerly-105/282645
The rudder on here looks rather strange... this isn't the original set up is it...?
thanks

M

 

[Mistroma]

Hi Mistroma,
I found a S 100. https://www.boatshop24.co.uk/sailboat/southerly-105/282645
The rudder on here looks rather strange... this isn't the original set up is it...?
thanks

M

I was confused for a moment and thought it must be an S95 rather than the S100, then I realised it was an S105.

I saw a few S105s with the same style rudder as the S95 and some others with a bit added on to the trailing edge (as seen in your link). I was never certain if it was a Mk II version or a DIY modification. Possibly the former as the 2-3 I saw looked very similar. I know there was a Mk I & Mk II with the S115 but less certain about the S105 as it was a very long time ago. I do remember seeing pictures or an article somewhere about an S105 with twin rudders. I thought it looked as if someone had bought 2 rudders from an S95 and bolted them on to brackets at slight angles. It looked pretty horrible.

The S95 was OK, though the helm could become pretty heavy. I'm pretty certain that the first S105s were a lot worse and more difficult to sail in any wind. Having a bigger trailing section on the rudder should make it even heavier on the helm. Less likely to round up uncontrollably and it might be OK as it had wheel steering vs. S95s tiller.

You can get an idea of the balance in light weather in this old video.

 

[Jemima Puddleduck]

I was confused for a moment and thought it must be an S95 rather than the S100, then I realised it was an S105. Sorry my typo, i meant a S105

I saw a few S105s with the same style rudder as the S95 and some others with a bit added on to the trailing edge (as seen in your link). I was never certain if it was a Mk II version or a DIY modification. Possibly the former as the 2-3 I saw looked very similar. I know there was a Mk I & Mk II with the S115 but less certain about the S105 as it was a very long time ago. I do remember seeing pictures or an article somewhere about an S105 with twin rudders. I thought it looked as if someone had bought 2 rudders from an S95 and bolted them on to brackets at slight angles. It looked pretty horrible. i think I’ve seen what you mean: https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1979/southerly-105-3476739/?refSource=standard listing

The S95 was OK, though the helm could become pretty heavy. I'm pretty certain that the first S105s were a lot worse and more difficult to sail in any wind. Having a bigger trailing section on the rudder should make it even heavier on the helm. Less likely to round up uncontrollably and it might be OK as it had wheel steering vs. S95s tiller.

You can get an idea of the balance in light weather in this old video.

 

[Gypsy_Tinkerer]

I read all this sound advice 2 years back, then went ahead and bought an S95. Really pleased with her so far.
‘Not a racing boat’ advice kind of stuck in mind, but I was trading up from a smaller boat so am happy with her speed. With a bit of Solent tide we have seen double figures over the ground at times.
Was interested in windward performance and found early on that she is absolutely fine. Other boats may point higher and go a little faster as they do so, but you can make certainly make worthwhile progress to windward. Even with a double reef. And a foul tide. And F6/7 winds and chop. I was reassured. The S95 is a sailing boat with a motor rather than a motorsailer. I don’t often plan to deliberately spend all day fighting the wind and tide, but it’s good to know you can if you need to. The sails always get used much more than the engine
I now take the ‘not a racing boat’ comment as a complement - to me it mostly describes how luxurious they are below
That lifting keel is awesome. It makes a huge difference but you can forget you have it when you first take charge of one. Keel down and she is really really stable. Keel up and you can sneak in anywhere at any state of the tide. As long as you don’t make any sharp turns. If you do, you’ll be scratching your head as the boat goes sideways just as easily as forwards!
The S95 has the old lifting rudder and I am glad of it. It grips well. But yes, if you want to be able to absent-mindedly fly onto a sandbar at 7 knots with the keel up and the rudder down, then the S100 with its small, high up square shaped rudder will suddenly be your preference
That inside steering position can be handy at times as well. Just don’t let your crew rest an oar against the wheel while you are at the tiller!

Finally they look good too, inside and out

Fair winds

 

[Mistroma]

Your post matches my experience. The S95 is actually surprisingly quick in light airs but pointing ability deteriorates rapidly above top end of F4. Fine with full genoa and main but windage and flat bottom take their toll when sails need to be reefed. Weather helm also becomes more of a problem and you end up reefing quite a bit.

I usually had the auto-pilot on when steering from below. I remember setting off for a weekend with a good forecast from Sat. afternoon onwards but rain pouring straight down in the morning. I was in shirt sleeves with the heating on as we passed another yacht leaving the marina. I raised my coffee mug and waved to the chap steering the other boat. He was in full wet weather gear and completely drenched. Didn't look too happy with my cheerful wave.

The S95 is incredibly controllable in shallow water if you aren't single handed. Just raise the keel a few inches initially and continue to lift as required. Obviously go slowly if there are rocks. The tip of the keel just keeps you on track over mud or sand, just raise the keel if you are slowing down too much. It is actually easy to stop with the keel tip just touching the bottom and pivot on the spot using prop wash.

I remember entering a harbour at low tide with about 2' of water at the entrance. It was a sunny day with only a light onshore breeze and flat water. We used the keel to do a series of 90 degree turns in deeper water after the bar. The harbour master arrived as we stopped about 3 feet away from a pontoon and used the keel as a handbrake. He was surprised how early the tide had come in and said he'd soon be able to pull us to the pontoon. We were busy putting out fenders, my wife went below to lift the keel and I threw him the bow line. His jaw dropped when he turned around to find that the wind and tide had taken us right against the pontoon. He hadn't seen a Southerly before and was gob-smacked to hear that we floated in 1'10" of water.