Southerly in bad conditions?

SirSnoozalot

SirSnoozalot

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Can anyone point me to anything on how Southerlies (drop keel variety) cope in really bad conditions?

I am toying with Southerly v. Nauticat (S&S and non S&S designs)
 
guess its a case of which Southerly and which Nauticat? There are Nauticat motorsailers and Nauticat sailing boats, whilst there are twin rudder Southerly's and the original single rudder ones. Mind you, all the Sotherlys will have a better deeper keel than the Nauticat and will be able to take to the ground.

Way I see it, the single rudder southerly is not an ideal design for heavy weather and heeling - the rudder is simply too shallow and loses grip. So in heavy weather, maybe is more of a motorsailer like most of the Nauticats.. The twin rudder ones got very good write ups though and sail much better when heeled than their predecessors.

Southerls seem well made.
 
Difficult to imagine two more different types of boats. Commonalities are that both are spacious and well built, both are commonly used by liveaboards, both have enthusiastic owners and both are expensive new.

Other than that they fulfil very different design briefs. As wotayottie says, the earlier Southerlies (which are not now expensive) have a reputation for being a bit wayward in a breeze, but the latest Rob Humphreys designs are much improved. On the other hand some Nauticats are more motor than sail whereas others, like the 42 and newer 37 models are good sailors.

You could work out all this from looking at their designs and specs and no doubt owners websites will give you some idea of how they work out in practice.
 
Yes. I am planning to liveaboard and cruise. I've been looking for a motor-sailer ideally, and at the S&S Nauticat 521 as first choice - then I might go anywhere. However, Nauticat 44 as second choice, in which case it would limit my cruising grounds more. However, looking at maintenance costs and all sorts of other things, what I can actually afford is cramping my choice. Thus, I am looking at what I like and can afford if I can't get first choice, and the Southerly 115 comes into the equasion.

I know it's not a true motor-sailer, but it kinda fits my like of deck-saloon/pilothouse. My range would maybe be further limited to Med etc, but I am East-coast based and the Southerly seems ideal for our muddy rivers. I know that the Nauticat can effectively take whatever crap you throw at it, and sail on one way or another, but I am not so sure about the Southerlies, although they are also a good build.

I am a winter sailer on the east coast, and often get caught out in weather that I don't like. Thus a deep keel boat that compensates for my own shortcomings would help. I am just a bit worried about the Southerly's drop keel, yet also, think its an advantage where I am.

Whatever I go for, will be about 20 years old. I cannot afford new(er). I have gone through the designs and specs of both boats, have sailed on Nauticats. But never sailed a Southerly.

Yes, it will be a second choice, but if it wont stand a battering, then it isnt my sort of boat. (Not that I deliberately go for bad weather -its just that as an ex fisherman, I dont reckognise the "sailing season"

(Or spell all that wll sometimes!)
 
The one bit I wouldnt worry about is the keel. It is likely to give you a greater draft than the Nauticat, is a betteraspect ratio and can be locked in the down position if you wish (check by model). In really bad weather, it gives you the ability to lift the keel and still be stable so you wont trip over it when driven sideways as often causes capsizes in normal monos.

Funny the perspectives we all get on things. Personally, I would rate the Southerly as a better quality boat than a Nauticat but you obviously dont. Whenever I have talked myself into buying something for sensible reasons / logic rather than buying what I want, I have regretted it. FWIW my advice to you is to get the Nauticat since you clearly fancy one.
 
Toad! Many thanks for that excellent link ! Why couldn't I find that lot on Google! All I got were boats for sale. Brilliant. Very much appreciated. Ta mate.
 
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The one bit I wouldnt worry about is the keel. It is likely to give you a greater draft than the Nauticat, is a betteraspect ratio and can be locked in the down position if you wish (check by model). In really bad weather, it gives you the ability to lift the keel and still be stable so you wont trip over it when driven sideways as often causes capsizes in normal monos.

Funny the perspectives we all get on things. Personally, I would rate the Southerly as a better quality boat than a Nauticat but you obviously dont. Whenever I have talked myself into buying something for sensible reasons / logic rather than buying what I want, I have regretted it. FWIW my advice to you is to get the Nauticat since you clearly fancy one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, to be honest, I rate the Nauticats very highly, but just didn't know about the Southerly. I know its a good boat, but thats all, if you know what I mean. The truth is, that I can buy a Southerly and still have enough to live and maintain it. I prefer the spec of the 115 to the equivelent N'cat 38, as it has so much room. Appreciate your advice.
 
Personally I cant see your crsuiung grounds being limited by any of your choices, you just treat different boat designs differently.

Ovni's have been pretty much every where, and so have quite a few bilge keel boats from 22' upwards.

Once you have cruised a boat for a few months you will get to know how to treat it. I'd happily take any of your choices on any route as long as the rigging, rudder and through hulls were in good condition.
 
Well said! All kinds of boats make good liveaboards and owners come to their own conclusions about what is good and not so good about their choice.

To my mind a Southerly 115 at around £60k is a good buy on the bang for bucks test and if the budget is limited is a much better bet than many traditional motor sailers at the same price. You just have to modify your expectations to reflect its strengths, and recognise that it is unlikely that anybody has ever been killed in one!
 
A Southerly 110 won its class in the latest AZAB (Azores And Back) race. They are pretty seaworthy and have a very high AVS. In fact, the S110 is top of my (theoretical) list for next boat. I'd be happy to cross the Atlantic in one, and the lift keel would be handy in places like the Bahamas... well, I can dream, can't I?
 
You are right about the high AVS. However, this is influenced by the high and buoyant coachroof.

However "seaworthiness" is much more complicated than just that one measure. Commonsense suggests that a relatively flat bottomed boat with a high aspect ratio keel (lifting or not) will behave very differently from a deep bodied long keel heavy displacement craft. Hence my comment that you cannot make a direct comparison between the two very different design concepts on this criterion. You can, however, make comparisons on other criteria that might be equally important in your decision, such as space, load carrying ability, build quality, draught etc.

I seem to remember Andrew Simpson doing a series of articles in PBO on exactly this subject a few years ago when he was building Shindig, which is a "modern" design that he has been living aboard for about 5 years.
 
[ QUOTE ]
You are right about the high AVS. However, this is influenced by the high and buoyant coachroof.



[/ QUOTE ]

Can you please explain that comment. I thought AVS was dependant on the lever arm of C of G to C of B with the shape of the hull and ballast ratio having the biggest effect.

Are you saying that the superstructure of a southerly compared to a nauticat makes all the difference to the AVS once you are over say 110 deg?
 
This probably is not very helpful, but.....

I recall reading an article in PBO some years ago about someone having an "interesting" time in the Irish Sea in (I think) a Southerly. The conditions were horrific.

She was rolled a couple of times.

They survived though! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Not sure why you have introduced 110 degrees. According to the RYA data both the Nauticat 37 and the Southerly 110 have the virtually the same AVS around 153 degrees. The CB is a function of the hull shape and volume. The higher this is, the greater the angle before it comes in the vertical plane with CG and the righting moment is lost.
 
I randomly introduced 110deg as I assumed that its only about then that the topside shape would have an influence on the form shape and hence AVS.

Are you confusing AVS with instability while inverted caused by topside eg look at the topside of a RNLI boat. Designed to be like a spinning top and unstable wghen inverted.
 
No, I am not confusing the two. The issue is the relationship between CB and CG. The further those two are apart the greater the righting moment. Many modern designs achieve this by high volume hulls and low CG, even though the ballast ratio may be low. For example I have a shallow draft Bavaria 37, but the AVS is the same as the standard model the ballast is the same, but in the form of a big bulb on the bottom of the keel. The same is true of the deep and shallow draft Oceanis 373. I would guess the Southerly AVS would drop significantly with the keel up as the CB would stay the same but CG would be higher.
 
I agree with what you are saying about the lifting keel but its your mention of the "high and buoyant" coachroof affecting the AVS that I am not sure I understand as that merely affects its inverted instability not necessarily its AVS unless it substantially moves the centre of buoyancy (more than a Nauticat) at greater angles of heel.
 
This is not really about a comparison between the two boats - except to show that you can get similar AVS with two different designs. I don't have all the information about the position of the CG and CB of each, but would think that the CB on the Southerly would be higher - a function of the hull and superstructure shape and volume. Also we don't have the full curve so can't see the area under the AVS point which tells us about the propensity to stay inverted, just as in your lifeboat example.
 
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