Sorting out an orange peel spray job

[BigART]

Hi Folks

We have just had a spray job completed by a contractor in Trinidad (with Jotun Hardtop AS), but we are really disappointed with the orange peel finish. Is this a disaster? My research on the net reveals that it needs to be sanded back with 1000-1500 grit and buffed/polished.

Questions:
- What is the difference between buffing and polishing? Buffing is maybe removing paint until smooth and polishing adding a polish until smooth?
- What buffing or polishing products should we look for?
- Do I need to hire or buy a machine or can I do it by hand?
- Is it a highly skilled job that needs a professional (hard to find around here at Carnival time) to avoid taking all the paint off?

Hope the 'body of the kirk' can help

The sad and disappointed owners of "Do It"

 

[pvb]

Don't suppose your contractor will respray it properly? That would be the best solution. Paint thickness is likely to be thin to start with, so sanding some of it off isn't an ideal remedy.

 

[PCUK]

The orange peel effect means there are high and low spots in the paint so sanding off the high spots will solve the appearance problem. However, sanding and polishing will degrade the paint surface making polishing a far more frequent necessity. Basically sanding and polishing a new paint job is a retrograde step. (Told this by Jotun UK expert). The only way to retrieve the situation is to flat off and get it sprayed again properly. Very disappointing.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

What has the contractor said?

With a modern two pack paint any sprayer worth his salt should be able to get a good finish "from the gun".
An orange peel finish either means he was no good, used the wrong thinners, or that he sprayed at the wrong temperatures/humidity.

Did he do the whole job or just the final coat after prep. work was done by others?

My first port of call would be to try to get the contractor to do the job properly.

 

[TQA]

Which yard were you in? Some yards like Powerboats will mediate in disputes if the work was done in their yard by an official contracter..

Also talk to YSATT, Yacht Services Association of Trinidad & Tobago, they can often help.

 

[Marine Reflections]

It's not a real problem and the research / advice you have is good.

It is due to the paint being thicker than say the paint used on a car, with thicker paint there is more of a chance of getting the orange peel effect, due to being far more viscous, certainly if using a normal spray gun that is not designed for viscous paint.
Paint on a car will be of a much thinner consistency and will go on the surface finer. With thicker paints the nozzle of the gun will have to be wider to flow freely, but there will be more product going onto the job.
That said, I agree with pvb, the contractor is only really halfway through the job, they now should be the ones who 'finish' it. It is not to say that getting a smooth finish with thicker paints is not possible, it is, but the set up needs to be set up for it.
Awlgrip for example is fairly thick, but you see some jobs come out smooth as silk and others still peely, this is due to the quality of the application with the correct set up, the correct application consistency, but also they have 'finished' the job!
Jotun and Awlgrip can be corrected once fully cured, despite what folk may say, it bites that is all, provided you follow a few simple rules you won't have a problem and yes you will need to finish the compounding / polishing stages correctly or you will have a problem in future. If it has been sanded and polished poorly then yes, it will degrade faster. It is what separate the pros from the cons in the correction world.
The ability to do it properly!!

In answer to your questions:


Buffing and polishing could be termed the same thing, we all have different meanings of the words. Compounding could be termed 'buffing', polishing also could be termed 'buffing', and taking a cloth with no product could also be 'buffing', so it can be confusing. It is like someone asking me to 'polish' a boat, some mean mechanically polish with a compound or polish, some mean improve or correct surface by polishing before waxing and some even mean waxing alone.
To simplify this, the 'polishing stages' have really been broken down into three stages:
Compounding - (the meat of the work, with more course compounds and firmer 'buffing' heads.
Polishing - (the finer stages, with softer, less aggressive products to finish and glass up a surface that has been compounded)
Waxing or sealing - (to protect the finished work)

Products, I would suggest 3M, but use what you have, they will all work, just some better than others.

Much too much to go into full detail, but a quick explanation:

The 'sanding' stages, these stages will be more relevant with orange peel, if you try compounding orange peel without first correcting with sanding stages then you will be working both the highs and the lows of the surface, you just need to be working down the highs here and not the lows. So a flat surface for the sandpaper to 'ride' over the highs is essential.
Of course a machine will work the best here, certainly on a large area, I use a electric orbital (with a small orbit) from Mirca, but by hand is probably safer when learning.

So, lets go for the 'by hand' method:

Get a bucket of water with a few drops of wash solution in (this will provide a certain amount of slip for the paper.
A flat rubber sanding block
Plenty of wet paper, with grades 800, 1000, 1200, 1500, possibly even 2000 if you really want it to jewel and have a perfect reflection.
A water blade (to wipe away residue)
Make sure the surface is very, very clean, any dirt or grit caught in your paper will damage the paint further.
Work the paper wet over the highs of the surface, wipe away residue dry and check your progress, see how much of the highs have been taken off. This is easy to see as the highs will have turned a matte finish and the lows will be glossy.
Change grade of paper if you need to, to one where it is most effective and will work the highs down without too much effort.
Once you are close to removing all of the highs and the surface is almost at a uniformed matte finish, start to work with the much finer papers to finish off the rest, this will remove any scratches caused by the previous papers. Don't leave it too late though, you want to leave the lows as much as possible.
Once that is all uniformed matte then its on to the polishing / buffing stages to recover back a glossy finish.
A machine will certainly speed things up on big areas, but it is a different method.

Is it a highly skilled job? no, but as with all similar correction works, the results will vary with skill level and products used.

 

[oldharry]

Orange peel effect is a spraying fault, usually because insufficient thinners were used to allow the paint to flow. The fault is with the operator who did it, and is not acceptable. In Uk you could reject it and if necessary involve Trading standards to get the job put to rights. May not be so simple where you are but you shouldn't have to accept it or have to put it to rights yourself.

 

[auditdata]

DO NOT DESPAIR!!!
See this post from me over a year ago where I had the same problem. The doom and gloom and the "You shouldn't have done it that way" posts depressed me. However following the advice of buffing with cutting compound and polishing has resulted in a finish that even contractors working on the boat think it is original gel coat.

Bigger picture here

 

[BigART]

Thank you all for your useful thoughts, particularly Marine Reflections. A little history.

We have used this man (a one man band) before back in 2006 before we headed west, we being newbies, had just let the expert get on with it and the initial results looked good with Awlcraft 2000 and we were happy. BUT, 2-3 years later and we were seeing primer through the paint and some areas directly exposed to the sun had only primer left. Advice was that the man had thinned the paint too much to make it easier to spray.

Come 2013, we wanted the boat to look good again. We thought we new what the problem was and we knew that the man worked hard and could do a good job so decided to go with the devil we knew and resolved to oversee the mixing of the paint and ensure it was mixed with the manufacturers instructions. We called the helpful UK Jotun helpline who said their paint could be applied with no thinners even in Trinidad temperatures and if thinners was used, it should be no more than 5%. Preferably an airless spraygun should be used but a conventional one would do. So we insisted that the painter stuck to these instructions although we allowed up to 10% thinners as he protested so much. He used the same conventional spraygun that he always uses, I am sure he does not possess an airless spray gun. We calculated our surface area and purchased enough paint to cover the 12.5 mtr boat with three coats at 3.3 ltrs per coat over three coats. For each batch of 3.3 ltrs, he would end up going around the boat over 1.5 times which seems to me that he was not applying it thickly enough, maybe he just could not adjust his technique after years of thinning paints the consistency of milk, maybe his gun could not cope, maybe we were wrong on the thinner limit.

The results after 3 coats of 3.3 ltrs per coat I have described. Independent advice from seemingly knowledgable passers-by is that he either had the wrong spray gun or the wrong technique. We don't know what the real problem is, the painter insists it is because we would not let him use his usual 30-40% thinners; we just want it sorted without a fight which being a visitor we will probably lose. We are in Power Boats who have a conflict resolution process but we want some knowledge to decide on the easy and quick solution. Hey, I will even pay money for more paint or sanding paper/polishing compound. We will have a chat with the management on Wednesday when everyone get back to work after the Carnival.

Angus

 

[KellysEye]

>It is due to the paint being thicker than say the paint on a car, with thicker paint there is more of a chance of getting the orange peel effect.

We had the hull and deck resprayed in Trinidad, the total number of Awlgrip coats (undercoat and topcoat ) was 14. They sanded each coat and I suspect the actual thickness was about 9 coats at the end. The finish was brilliant. Obviously the bloke the OP used was incompetent which he proved the first time, so I can't understand why he was used a second time.

Also I have seen cars with orange peel, it's just a bad spray job.

 

[BigART]

Obviously the bloke the OP used was incompetent which he proved the first time, so I can't understand why he was used a second time.

Because we, being newbies, knew no better and the man came highly recommended (and is still recommended). And the finish was great when we initially left the yard in 2006. Given his method of 30-40% thinners, he could probably have done a good finish again - as long as we were happy with a 2-3 year life.

 

[Grajan]

Have seen this problem often, there is a vast difference between applying coatings with an airless and a conventional spray gun one applies paint at enormous pressure, the other requires the coating to be thinned mixed with compressed air and blown on to the surface they are totally different machines and the coatings are manufactured to suit the type of application to be used. You have asked your applicator to do the impossible and to have applied the airless coating and only have orange peel means he IS an expert! However all is not lost, two pack coatings with orange peel finish will lose some of the magnitude of the "bumps" after about 6/8 weeks or once the coating is thoroughly cured, as additional thinners were added you could find this time could be extended.
Do not start rubbing down or using cutting pastes until such time as the coating is fully cured as you could find that the cutting paste amalgamates with the coating and you will have great difficulty in recovering the gloss. Flatting back and burnishing could well be the way to go but personally I would try a small area ,like the transom, to asses the difference and if results are not to your liking it is not toooo big an area to re coat with a brush.
It sounds as if the coating you have used is a "big" ship product and for as much as these products are at the forefront of technology for their market place they are not as "hard" or as able to hold their gloss as well as their Yachting counterpart.

 

[TQA]

Thank you all for your useful thoughts, particularly Marine Reflections. A little history.

We have used this man (a one man band) before back in 2006 before we headed west, we being newbies, had just let the expert get on with it and the initial results looked good with Awlcraft 2000 and we were happy. BUT, 2-3 years later and we were seeing primer through the paint and some areas directly exposed to the sun had only primer left. Advice was that the man had thinned the paint too much to make it easier to spray.

Come 2013, we wanted the boat to look good again. We thought we new what the problem was and we knew that the man worked hard and could do a good job so decided to go with the devil we knew and resolved to oversee the mixing of the paint and ensure it was mixed with the manufacturers instructions. We called the helpful UK Jotun helpline who said their paint could be applied with no thinners even in Trinidad temperatures and if thinners was used, it should be no more than 5%. Preferably an airless spraygun should be used but a conventional one would do. So we insisted that the painter stuck to these instructions although we allowed up to 10% thinners as he protested so much. He used the same conventional spraygun that he always uses, I am sure he does not possess an airless spray gun. We calculated our surface area and purchased enough paint to cover the 12.5 mtr boat with three coats at 3.3 ltrs per coat over three coats. For each batch of 3.3 ltrs, he would end up going around the boat over 1.5 times which seems to me that he was not applying it thickly enough, maybe he just could not adjust his technique after years of thinning paints the consistency of milk, maybe his gun could not cope, maybe we were wrong on the thinner limit.

The results after 3 coats of 3.3 ltrs per coat I have described. Independent advice from seemingly knowledgable passers-by is that he either had the wrong spray gun or the wrong technique. We don't know what the real problem is, the painter insists it is because we would not let him use his usual 30-40% thinners; we just want it sorted without a fight which being a visitor we will probably lose. We are in Power Boats who have a conflict resolution process but we want some knowledge to decide on the easy and quick solution. Hey, I will even pay money for more paint or sanding paper/polishing compound. We will have a chat with the management on Wednesday when everyone get back to work after the Carnival.

Angus

Hmm don't fancy your chances of getting him to redo it on his dime.

Mixing the paint with a suitable thinner possibly a retarding thinner is part of the skill that you were paying for. You over ruled the expert.

I used to run a sprayshop as part of a garage and know that getting the thinners right is up to the guy applying the paint.

BTW i had my boat Awlgripped in Powerboats by Selwyn and Michael and am happy with the job.

 

[BigART]

You have asked your applicator to do the impossible ....
.

Hmm don't fancy your chances of getting him to redo it on his dime.

Mixing the paint with a suitable thinner possibly a retarding thinner is part of the skill that you were paying for. You over ruled the expert.

Me, I'm just a dumb customer and asked him to apply the paint in accordance with the manufacturers instructions which are 5% thinner max. The tool of choice was down to him. Until this mess started, I wasn't even aware that there was a difference.

Never mind. I just want the coat sorted with some sort of flat shiny surface, being a hard chine steel cruising boat, I am not looking for a mirror boat show finish.

I have had an alternative option suggested. After the paint has cured, sand back to flat and respray with Jotun Hardtop clear coat. I am told it would be quicker than sanding/buffing/waxing. Any thoughts?

 

[Grajan]

From memory you are now talking of mixing paint schemes and that is never a wise move.
just because it is made by the same manufacturer doesn't mean it will adhere to the underlying coat. If I were you I would speak with Jotun tell them the products that have been supplied and applied and the results achieved then they can confirm wether the HARDTOP will work or not.

 

[sailorman]

Reject the job. simples

Hi Folks

We have just had a spray job completed by a contractor in Trinidad (with Jotun Hardtop AS), but we are really disappointed with the orange peel finish. Is this a disaster? My research on the net reveals that it needs to be sanded back with 1000-1500 grit and buffed/polished.

Questions:
- What is the difference between buffing and polishing? Buffing is maybe removing paint until smooth and polishing adding a polish until smooth?
- What buffing or polishing products should we look for?
- Do I need to hire or buy a machine or can I do it by hand?
- Is it a highly skilled job that needs a professional (hard to find around here at Carnival time) to avoid taking all the paint off?

Hope the 'body of the kirk' can help

The sad and disappointed owners of "Do It"

 

[BigART]

From memory you are now talking of mixing paint schemes and that is never a wise move.
just because it is made by the same manufacturer doesn't mean it will adhere to the underlying coat. If I were you I would speak with Jotun tell them the products that have been supplied and applied and the results achieved then they can confirm wether the HARDTOP will work or not.

I think they may be the same scheme, the topcoat was 'Jotun Hardtop AS' and the suggested clear topcoat is 'Jotun Hardtop AS Clear' which sounds compatible to me but I will check with Jotun. The Clear is normally a protective coat apparently, but if the topcoat is sanded back to flat with 1500, would the Clear give a good finish?

BTW, I now know that the 'AS' means airless spray, meant nowt to me at the time, it was what the paint shop had - dumb customer again. I would have hoped the professional would have protected me from my lack of knowledge.

 

[Marine Reflections]

Completely agree with you, you are not a paint professional, you are a customer.
He should have protected you from your lack of knowledge, not gone ahead 'knowing the results'.


I think that the clear topcoat sounds like a good idea, they should be compatible.
There is some info and spray set up parameters, if this is the one you were thinking of? here.http://www.jotun.com/jotun/paints/20020020.nsf/aa3962700ffc74bcc1256d21002b9d35/1e5e524c08d6c3a2c125707e002b7806!OpenDocument

Edit: In reply to "would the clear give a good finish"; if it is applied with AS then yes, if being applied by same method as before then the results will probably be the same.
The link above gives spray application data, but for airless only, nozzle size, psi at 2100 etc.
I would suggest if the applicator can't meet these requirements then they shouldn't take the job on, or at the very least provide you with a test panel of final results.

 

[BigART]

Hello Marine Reflections

Thank you for your thorough and helpful responses. Yes, that's the stuff.

Having stomped around the yard in a mood, I have spotted a couple of other sprayers working with guns which perform very differently. Instead of the huge cloud of spray which drifts of downwind from my guy's gun, some of which actually stick to the boat, theirs seems to spray a blade of paint almost all of which sticks to the boat; I am guessing these are airless spray guns. In fact, they do not even mask the boats alongside! As they were busy, I haven't quizzed them yet, but I will have a chat with them post carnival.

Angus

 

[Lakesailor]

This is an airless spraygun in action.

Whilst I think the operator should have alerted you to the fact that his equipment wasn't suitable for using the way you insisted, you should shoulder some blame yourself for insisting on him using the materials in a way he didn't want to.
The way forward is really to bite the bullet and get one of the other operators to flat and refinish the job. If the original guy can't afford to rent an airless sprayer I doubt you will get anywhere with a claim against him.
As the first job was rubbish, I don't know why you thought the second would be any good.

My maxim with tradesmen is they are either good or they aren't. Stay with the good ones. Dump the others.