some questions about Portugal

[Marceline]

Hi - we're new to the forum and still researching buying our first boat that we're planning to live aboard

Many used boats we like the look of happen to be in Portugal and, with it being a place we rather like (though only visited briefly before), could we ask a few questions as we noticed a few posters are based there.

- with us both being UK citizens/passport holders and currently based in UK - know we've no chance sadly now to try and apply for residency before the Dec 31st deadline. I'm lucky enough to work online/'from home' so in 'theory' I guess I wouldn't need a work visa to keep my income coming in - but would there be a way to try and relocate to Portugal in 2021 - or is it we've literally missed the boat to try and relocate to there ?
- if the above is somehow a possible - would we look to pay Income tax in Portugal or UK ?

sorry if the above are daft questions - we've never lived ourside the UK and struggling to figure out plans we can try and put together

Ideally we'd love to relocate and live there full time, so hopefully gaining residency woud be our main goal. But if it's just a shorter time, would love to move there if its a possible

Many thanks for any info / suggestions

 

[25931]

I am not aware that you will be unable to become a resident next year.
If you are living and working you will certainly be taxed here.

 

[Marceline]

Hi and thanks for the reply - sorry if my initial post is muddled - late night posting and half asleep

with the income tax question it was more that I'd likely still be working online remotely for a UK company, so I wasn't sure what the situation would be

and my first question was more - with us not able to apply for residency before the end of this year, is it still possible to do this in 2021 having missed the 'transition period' to apply for residency

again - if the above are daft questions - very sorry

 

[25931]

Hi and thanks for the reply - sorry if my initial post is muddled - late night posting and half asleep

with the income tax question it was more that I'd likely still be working online remotely for a UK company, so I wasn't sure what the situation would be

and my first question was more - with us not able to apply for residency before the end of this year, is it still possible to do this in 2021 having missed the 'transition period' to apply for residency

again - if the above are daft questions - very sorry

The British gov has been saying apply before the end of the transition period but I have not seen anything concrete about next year. It might be that the question is still being discussed.

 

[nortada]

Hi Marceline,

Welcome to the forum.

Three basic questions; where in Portugal do you hope to live, do you plan to live ashore or afloat, do you intend to relocate to Portugal or commute (keeping an interest in the U.K.)

You may already be aware, you can have dual Portuguese/U.K. residency and there is a dual tax treaty that allows you to elect where you wish to pay tax (Portugal or the U.K.) but income earned in Portugal will be taxed in Portugal.

You may find these links a good starting point:-

How To Become A Portuguese Resident & Keep Your British Passport - All You Need To Know About Registering & Residency

and

Five Videos From The British Embassy On Residency, Health Cover, Driving Licenses + Advice From The British Ambassador

If you want to access the whole of The Lagos Navigators & Strollers Forum go to:- Lagos Navigators & Strollers

or Google:- The Lagos Strollers and click on the Tapatalk Link. There is no need to register or log in, just tap on the central heading.

Best of luck with your adventure.

N

ps Sorry, just notice that you plan to live afloat so that question answered.

 

[syvictoria]

To add to the above, there should be nothing stopping you from becoming a resident of Portugal, or indeed any other EU country, from 2021 onward. The application will just be more complicated and/or expensive as you will be applying as a third country national. The process will effectively then be the same as an American (for example) moving to Portugal now.

I too have been wondering about the tax implications of working remotely in another country after the end of the transition period. If you are working with English clients, corresponding in English and earning in sterling, does the location matter? I.e.: will the income be deemed to be sourced in England or, say, Portugal?

As for dual taxation agreements, do we know that they will continue to exist from 1/1/21?

 

[nortada]

I too have been wondering about the tax implications of working remotely in another country after the end of the transition period. If you are working with English clients, corresponding in English and earning in sterling, does the location matter? I.e.: will the income be deemed to be sourced in England or, say, Portugal?

As for dual taxation agreements, do we know that they will continue to exist from 1/1/21?

With less than a month to go, the issues you raise have not come up in Portugal so think it unlikely they will just happen on 1/1/21.

But who knows

All British passport holders could be evicted from the EU on 2/1/21 (1/1/21 is a public holiday)?

What ifs can go on for ever and get you no where, so unless there is concrete evidence of change, it is better to stay with - what ares?

 

[syvictoria]

With less than a month to go, the issue you raise have not come up in Portugal so think it unlikely they will just happen on 1/1/21.

But who knows

All British passport holders could be evicted from the EU on 2/1/21 (1/1/21 is a public holiday), or you could be just be scaremongering ‼

Sorry, what???!!!! Perhaps I need to have another coffee, as I'm afraid that made little sense to me!

Who said anything about eviction? We're talking about tax obligations/source for remote earnings.

 

[25931]

Sorry, what???!!!! Perhaps I need to have another coffee, as I'm afraid that made little sense to me!

Who said anything about eviction? We're talking about tax obligations/source for remote earnings.

Nortada's sense of humour

 

[nortada]

Sorry, what???!!!! Perhaps I need to have another coffee, as I'm afraid that made little sense to me!

Who said anything about eviction? We're talking about tax obligations/source for remote earnings.

Yep, you definitely need another coffee. Have a virtual one on me??

Now back to topic; the OP is looking for advice on things in Portugal so I don’t think it very helpful to bring up a series of what-ifs. Especially if these what-ifs have not surfaced in country.

Tax obligations/ overseas earnings are well established by treaty and in Portuguese law, are not subject to Brexit so any changes in the near future are unlikely and no, I am not going digging for links.?

EvictionsWell there are so many rumours, lies and half-truths currently in circulation, they amount to scaremongering.

I thought I would indulge myself floating my own rumour/lie - ‘mass evictions’ from a country that is doing everything in it’spower to reassure it’s British community to stay put after 31/12/20.

If you really want the boring truth have Look the links in my #5.

 

[syvictoria]

With less than a month to go, the issues you raise have not come up in Portugal so think it unlikely they will just happen on 1/1/21.

But who knows

All British passport holders could be evicted from the EU on 2/1/21 (1/1/21 is a public holiday)?

What ifs can go on for ever and get you no where, so unless there is concrete evidence of change, it is better to stay with - what ares?

Thank you for removing your reference to me scaremongering.

Re "concrete evidence of change" - I think perhaps Brexit qualifies as that!!!

 

[nortada]

Thank you for removing your reference to me scaremongering.

Re "concrete evidence of change" - I think perhaps Brexit qualifies as that!!!

Yes, wasn't targeting you so I thought better of it just as I posted so I edited my message but you got to my post before I edited it.

Internet speed, today, desperately slow today.

Brexit is a very proscribed change, which is limited to specific areas so as far as I am aware, changes to bilateral treaties and protocols are not part of the Brexit agreement. Certainly not changes to roaming (another popular rumour) or the 1386 England/Portuguese Treaty of Windsor (yet to be raised) but wait around...........

Actually, grandfather rights have been verbally confirmed by the British Ambassador (so no link). ?

 

[syvictoria]

Brexit is a very proscribed change, which is limited to specific areas so as far as I am aware changes to bilateral treaties and protocols are not part of the Brexit agreement.

I see your point. I guess the challenge therefore is knowing what's a bilateral treaty and what's EU law and potentially subject to change/reinterpretation.

 

[Marceline]

Many thank for the replies and links - a big help thanks.

I was not aware of the dual tax situations so that's really interesting and I'll look into that, and the possibilities of a dual passport sometime in the future if we manage to qualify for residency is a huge plus if those are still a possible from 2021+

re: "Three basic questions; where in Portugal do you hope to live, do you plan to live ashore or afloat, do you intend to relocate to Portugal or commute (keeping an interest in the U.K.)"

- ideally we would be living afloat as that's our longterm plan - but we're up for renting ashore for a while if that helps to apply for residency.
- not sure where we'd plan to be based yet, but somewhere larger like Porto/Lisbon would be great for us and we like the look of Faro or Lagos as well, but if we were renting we'd be happy living in smaller places or even out of town if that helps keep the rent down
- I think medium to long term would prefer to fully relocate and work in Portugal. But while I'm still working for the UK company - flying back to UK for the occasional meeting if still working remotely would be likely. They would only be occasional though.

But glad it should still be possible to relocate from 2021+ and I'll research the options and routes rules that are currently for US / Non EU citizens

Huge thanks - really appreciated and lots to think about and look into more

 

[nortada]

I see your point. I guess the challenge therefore is knowing what's a bilateral treaty and what's EU law and potentially subject to change/reinterpretation.

Got it in one

Unless you know what your are looking for the latest bilateral treaty are notoriously difficult to source.

I suspect it will be almost as hard to fathom the Brexit agreement, when it comes, so rather than frightening ourselves (needlessly), with endless speculation possibly reactive rather than proactive is the best way to go.

A practical example is the British EHIC, which has been exercising minds here abouts.

It is generally accepted that EHIC cover for Brits in the EU will end at the end of this month but will it?

It has been suggested that the Brexit deal (in the best interests of all) may agree to continue with EHIC cover for EU visitors to the UK and vice versa for British visitors to the EU. Another rumour is that, as a bilateral concession, Britain and Portugal may continue to recognise each others EHIC?

A modification to this rumour is that over 65s will keep their EHIC concessions but I suspect this is confusion with OAPs and the S1 Scheme, which is nothing to do with Brexit. On top of this if you are resident in Portugal, you will get a new EHIC card but it is issued by Newcastle and the UK continues to up costs of your medical care. If you are resident in Portugal and in the S1 Scheme you still get free NHS cover when in the UK. Of course as a resident in Portugal, you get full Portuguese State medical care so don't need a EHIC; unless you are in a third EU country (Spain?).

All rather complicated and specific to individual circumstances so we will test the situation next year and report back the facts.

One of many complicated issues.

 

[nortada]

Many thank for the replies and links - a big help thanks.

I was not aware of the dual tax situations so that's really interesting and I'll look into that, and the possibilities of a dual passport sometime in the future if we manage to qualify for residency is a huge plus if those are still a possible from 2021+

re: "Three basic questions; where in Portugal do you hope to live, do you plan to live ashore or afloat, do you intend to relocate to Portugal or commute (keeping an interest in the U.K.)"

- ideally we would be living afloat as that's our longterm plan - but we're up for renting ashore for a while if that helps to apply for residency.
- not sure where we'd plan to be based yet, but somewhere larger like Porto/Lisbon would be great for us and we like the look of Faro as well, but if we were renting we'd be happy living in smaller places or even out of town if that helps keep the rent down
- I think medium to long term would prefer to fully relocate and work in Portugal. But while I'm still working for the UK company - flying back to UK for the occasional meeting if still working remotely would be likely. They would only be occasional though.

But glad it should still be possible to relocate from 2021+ and I'll research the options and routes rules that are currently for US / Non EU citizens

Huge thanks - really appreciated and lots to think about and look into more

Why would you want a second (Portuguese) passport Not sure, but I think you may have to be a citizen to get a passport Others will know but Portuguese citizenship is not a Brexit issue.

As, next year, you will not be able to qualify for residency in Portugal as an EU citizen, I wouldn't rush in but let the dust settle and see what materialists. It won't take long.

 

[syvictoria]

I was not aware of the dual tax situations so that's really interesting and I'll look into that, and the possibilities of a dual passport sometime in the future if we manage to qualify for residency is a huge plus if those are still a possible from 2021+

Regretfully citizenship (a passport) and residency are two quite different things. Citizenship can often be obtained after several years of residency, but requirements differ between countries and I'm not familiar with those in Portugal.

 

[Marceline]

ah - so 'dual Portuguese/U.K. residency' - that's not dependent on getting EU citizenship/Portugesse passport

that's helpful to know thanks

 

[nortada]

ah - so 'dual Portuguese/U.K. residency' - that's not dependent on getting EU citizenship/Portugesse passport

that's helpful to know thanks

Correct, getting Portuguese temporary residency is detailed in that link I sent you in #5.

There is a possibility that if the Portuguese Authorities are satisfied you are genuinely coming to Portugal to settle you may be able to get residency under EU terms until end of June 21.

I believe other EU countries, including Greece, Spain and possibly Italy are offering a similar concession. Wonder why? ?

 

[25931]

ah - so 'dual Portuguese/U.K. residency' - that's not dependent on getting EU citizenship/Portugesse passport

that's helpful to know thanks

You keep your UK passport but also get a Portuguese ID card which enables you to travel in the Schengen area.
You are supposed to spend six months (total) in a year in Portugal but the authorities have been turning blind eye so far , that may change so its as well to be aware of the fact.