So you buy a 40 yr old boat................

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chockswahay

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What's the worst that can happen??

I am looking at a few yachts right now, and the type and price that I can afford are all from the late 60's to late 70's. I am told by many that the 'old uns' were built like tanks (!)......

Engines can be replaced, rigging renewed, etc etc............but what about the superstructure?

Any thoughts anyone?

Chox

P.S. Is a survey really worth it?
 
Well I've just bought a 39yr old boat, so...
It's my understanding that when GRP is built up heavily enough it doesn't flex (or at least not enough to cause damage). If it's not ravaged by osmosis then it should last a very, very long time.
It is normal for essential gear to have been replaced by this age. Mine, for example, has a new engine and sterngear, new through-hulls and valves, and new primary winches. The spars are fine but at some point a new boom would be nice.
So, I'd say get a sturdy boat, not some flimsy thing, and one that has been looked after. It's very rare for a 'project' to work out to be better value than something with the work already done- at least if you value your time.

As to a survey, I wavered and then found someone fairly cheap so went for it. If the boat's quite cheap I wouldn't bother though.
 
chockswahay said:
I am looking at a few yachts right now, and the type and price that I can afford are all from the late 60's to late 70's. I am told by many that the 'old uns' were built like tanks (!)......

Engines can be replaced, rigging renewed, etc etc............but what about the superstructure?
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Many types will have specific oddities to look out for: keel attachments in Westerlys, mast supports in others. As long as those aspects are OK, I wouldn't be in the least bothered by a 40 year old GRP boat ... there are plenty of plastic gliders of that age flying round as well.

P.S. Is a survey really worth it?
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Ian Nicolson - don't use anyone else - will charge you about £12/foot all in (includes travel). For a 26 footer that's just three hundred quid or so. Trivial if you're buying an expensive one (the survey was lost in the noise buying Jumblie and a jolly good idea if you're buying a cheap one. In the latter case it's not so much for negotiating price, but for getting an outline idea of what maintenance and improvement priorities should be.
 
If you are a practical sort, with the time and the inclination there is nothing wrong with picking up an inexpensive boat, as you say, work out the worst case, and make your bid.
Putting it thus:
"Look this is my bid, it is firm, I don't require a survey, I can settle in cash, and if you need some time to think it over that is fine with me"
...is a great incentive for the seller to moderate his expectations.

I have never bothered with a survey, but you do have to be a bit cute, fear the worst and hope for the best. Go into it with your eyes open and you will be ok.

PS
This advice is not for power boats, steel barges, exotic racing machines, or wooden classics. For the run of the mill 5 - 20k old GRP ripper, you will be fine.
 
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I had a survey done but did not appreciate the costs that I was about to incur just leaving the boat where it was while some of the problems were sorted out. I also ( with the surveyors help) completely underestimated the costs of putting things right.

I now have a boat I love with most of the old problems fixed or renewed. I was naive and went ahead. Take a long cold look at all the costs, add them to the price asked, and if it doesn't add up to value, look elsewhere. I will never see my money back but them I am not about to sell, and am still doing upgrades.

One of the advantages of doing a boat up is that you know the faults, what you have fixed and are confident in the finished article.
 
My boat (Macwester Wight) is 39 years old; the hull is as good as new (30mm thick average); the mast and boom are fine; the Volvo engine is good, Everything else is replaceable such as standing and running rigging; sails; headlining; cockpit seats; cleats; etc. The boat does what I want it to do. The Macwester has encapsulated keels, therefore no worries about keel movement; it will not win any races but it will take me and the family everywhere at a fraction of the cost of a newish boat. On the other hand it does not have a shower and according to my teenage daughter it does not look "cool"

Therefore it all depends on how much money you wish to spend, the image, and what you like. Some people are willing to spend £60K on a boat that they will use only 10 days a year.
 
Another advantage of a survey is that it can pick up problems you did not spot and thus negotiate a good price reduction. On my current boat I offered 10k under the asking price "Subject to Survey" and the broker showed me a survey done for a prospective purchaser which was couple of months old. I had a local well known local surveyor do the 'official' survey but also asked my neighbour who had just passed his exam as a yacht surveyor(he did it for practice). They were both remarkably similar, and picked up all the faults I had noticed and also picked up an important one I had missed. With all this evidence I managed to get the boat at only a fraction more than my offered price. My neighbours report also included high quality photos(he's a keen photographer) which made a lot of difference to the appearance of his report.
 
Beleza is 30 yr old, and in better condition than boats 25 years younger, I believe when looking for a boat age is less of an issue than the original build quality. You can buy hi spec boats of that age that just get better with age, and they usually don't cost that much more, look out for such a gem, they are about.

I'm even on the original engine, spars (though the rigging has been changed) and I'm only this year bowing to the demand by No 1 son for some new sails as the original ones are still looking good, due to yearly servicing.

However, personally I'd avoid home completed boats and as been previously said exotic, or racing boats. I did once buy an exotic cold moulded mahogany IOR speed machine for what seemed buttons at the time, great boat, but a total disaster as it it needed a crew of gorillas, and quite frankly scared the **** out of my usual sailing mates. Once the novelty had worn of and the bills for breakages came in I soon laid her up and eventually got rid of her.

So go for an oldie, you'll not regret it.
 
My current boat was built in 1973 & I have had her about 16 years - no intention of selling her - not found anything more suited to my needs at any price or age.

Previous boat was built in 1966, so would have been 30 when sold. There are dozens of good, but old grp boats in every harbour, condition is critical, but it generally shows itself in long ownership & plenty of reasonably new replacement kit demonstrating that she is well looked after & well maintained.

Check out the Vega web site & the early Westerly group plenty of well loved boats "of a certain age".
 
40 years young...

chockswahay said:
What's the worst that can happen??

I am looking at a few yachts right now, and the type and price that I can afford are all from the late 60's to late 70's. I am told by many that the 'old uns' were built like tanks (!)......

Engines can be replaced, rigging renewed, etc etc............but what about the superstructure?

Any thoughts anyone?

Chox
Click to expand...

We Trident owners are celebrating the 50th anniversary of the launch of Trident No 1 this year (see the video here: http://www.trident24.com/events.html ) so regard 40 as young. Trident No 1 is as good as new and still winning races.

Early GRP boats were a bit of a novelty: designers didn't really understand just how strong grp was so tended to overbuild and anyway buyers were then used to wooden scantlings and needed to be reassured grp was just as solid.

It has to be said though that if you have to replace a major component like an engine or mast on a vintage boat - or even a complete suit of sails - the hefty cost is unlikely to be fully reflected in the resale value. So you need to be sure its you that will enjoy the full benefit from such replacements and not someone you sell it on to in the near future.
 
If you buy a well designed and well built vessel of that vintage likely most things can be replaced or refurbed, given time / money - you just don't want to be the only owner to ever do that :rolleyes:

Google is your freind, for both current and past owners (tend to be a bit more frank). Every boat will have known likely issues - good to buy these fixes already done and time tested.

Be very hard on yourself when costing up on both the money and time spent. You may be able to DIY 90%, but unless your goal is boat repair actually DIYing 90% of the boat is a big time commitment on a part time basis. A bit of a tidy up can easily become a project...............
 
I agree with pretty muchall of the above. Avocet is nearly 40. Unusually (I've never seen it on another boat) the gelcoat on her topsides is falling off and in the process of being replaced with epoxy. It's very odd as the gelcoat below the waterline and on the decks is fine! Just because they're laid up very thick (and Avocet is pretty thickly laid up but nowhere near 30mm - 20 maybe), doesn't mean that they can't develop structural faults. One huge advantage, however, is that they generally used no "clever" reinforcement techniques like woven matting, sandwich construction or tricky filler manterials. For that reason, they're very easy to repair and modify. Buy an oldie and you'll never know the utter misery of a detached and sopping wet balsa core!

From my own experience, old boats (especially at the cheaper end of the market) tend to have suffered from several previous owners' DIY. Get a good one and it's not a problem. Get a bad one and don't underestimate the amount of work and hassle to try and rectify problems caused! Because older sub-30-foot boats tended to be pretty spartan inside by modern standards, people will have retro-fitted almost all the "toys" (instruments, engines, galley, fridges, domestic water system, trim etc). If you need to replace / repair any of this (or internal joinery) it's well worth thinking how you'd get it out without trashing everything around it. Modern boats tend to have all their innards on a huge fibreglass "insert" that goes in before the deck is bonded on. Avocet's interior is made up of a huge number of pieces that were small enough to go through the hatch!

Finally, as the interiors were done piecemeal, I found it nigh-impossible to soundproof Avocet's engine compartment adequately. For the amount of time I use the engine, I just live with it, but it's a good example of how it can be tricky to bring modern creature comforts to a boat that was never designed to have them from the start.
 
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chockswahay said:
What's the worst that can happen??
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Stand by for loads of posts extolling thick grp from the days when they padded it out with anything from chalk to slate dust! The reality of course is that the construction quality of equivalent boats made today is far better just as it is for everything else from cars to tv sets. We make technical progress.

Anyway, moving on from there before I get lynched by MAB owner. :D The main problem you will have is that just like houses are all about the fitment of internals and finishing, so boats are about more than the hull. And all these boat fittings will have worn over the years. Some will have been replaced, and some will have been bodged by owners who could afford the buying price of the boat but not the maintenance costs. Most other worn out bits will still be there. And replacements for a big old boat cost much the same as they do for a big new boat - you might buy an old Ferrari for the cost of a new Ford but the spares prices wont be the same!

Design has moved on a great deal since the 60s. Many designs from that period were simply wooden boats made in grp and so incorporating all the weaknesses that were forced on the designer by using wood. Long keels are a good example of that! :eek:

So whilst it's possible to buy an old boat in really good nick, it's more likely to break your heart and your wallet. Certainly my experience has been that the cheapest boat to own that I ever had was a new small one. And it was the boat that gave me the most sailing time since I had little or nothing to maintain. All the others showed signs of previous owners who didnt want to spend or couldn't afford to maintain at the correct standard using a yard and werent that practical themselves.

Do you need a survey? Yes you do - if only to protect you from yourself. It's so easy to get boat buyers goggles and to overlook the obvious problems. Even with a surveyor I've talked myself into unwise decisions - God knows what I might have bought without one.
 
Bosun Higgs said:
Design has moved on a great deal since the 60s. Many designs from that period were simply wooden boats made in grp and so incorporating all the weaknesses that were forced on the designer by using wood. Long keels are a good example of that! :eek:
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The Bosun is quite right of course. Boats made of wooden planks all tended to take a similar form because they were made of planks and had to be capable of survival at sea. It took a while before designers and builders either realised you could shape them differently once you were using a more plastic material - or dared to do so given the innate conservatism of many yachtsmen. The availability of water resistant plywood and cold moulding techniques pioneered in WW2 aircraft building also affected boat designs.

So aesthetic preference may also be a factor as well as seaworthiness, structural soundness and price. If you like the slit-eyed GRP saucers that came along later, that's fine. But if you prefer the more traditional shaped boat then that maybe another reason for looking at the earlier GRP designs though not all modern boats have abandoned the traditional look and some have deliberately aped them.
 
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