Snowgoose 37

[Superstrath]

Anyone else out there got an early-eighties Prout Snowgoose 37? We've recently acquired one and would like to discuss a few things with other owners.
Most things are fairly obvious (at least after you've got them wrong a few times) but there are some mysterious issues we can't figure out.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Birdseye]

I've got a quest 33, which seems to me to be built on the same systems, really a bit of a little brother.

Ask the questions and I'll try to help.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Boathook]

I am also a Cat owner but not a Snowgoose. If you have problems say what they are, and I and possibly others, may be able to help.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[timevans2000]

I have a 1981 model. What do you want to know?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Superstrath]

OK. Water tanks. There are two keel tanks - and two massive tanks in the bows. If the whole lot are filled, the boat ends up down by the head very badly. Is this installation standard? The keel tanks fill through the bow tanks. No gauges are fitted, so how to control the amount of water in the tanks?
Rudders. The available amount of rudder angle seems very mean - having inspected all the elements of the system, it seems to be as fitted. Again, is this normal?
Tacking. We acquired the boat "winterised" and had to tighten the rig, figure out the running rigging etc. This is ok, and we have got things going well, BUT we cannot get it to tack. I think that this is a function of the mast being so far back, and that the main is weathercocking the boat in almost all circumstances. Is there a trick I'm missing? Or are we condemned to a lifetime of gybes? With such a titchy main this is relatively drama-free, but not very efficent or elegant!
Thanks for any replies.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[rickwat]

The 2 keel tanks are standard but the compartments right at the front should be empty as standard and ideally be sealed at the frontmost bulkhead so in the event of a collision water doesn't enter further in. Are you sure they are tanks and don't just have remote fillers for the keel tanks. You don't want much weight up front or there's a danger of burying a bow in rough seas. The keel tanks are 35gal each and there should be inspection hatches under small removable floor panels. You just have to watch the level as it's being filled and stop about an inch or so below the top.

Will respond to other points when I can if no else gives info.

Rick


<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Tacking a cat is a different game to a monohull.

The theory is to go into the tack turning slowly so as not to wipe the speed of completely in one foul swoop, and as the genoa loses air and just starts to flog, turn hard and go about.

This is the theory, not always what happens in the real world, in lighter airs it may be difficult to get the bow round enough before she stops in the water and goes back again, then, in these circumstances I gybe.

It is all practice, some days my crew and I get it right all day, others we are out of sync and end up frustrated and resort to gybing. First few sails of summer are the worst.

I realise we have different cats but I presume from your post we have similar problems. Another way off the top of my head, in the comfort of my study can be to roll up the genoa slightly before going about, thus you are not trying to move quite so much cloth across the wind, but this seems like a lot of work to me.

My inner stay causes me no end of problems getting my genny across the boat too.

<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk/movies.html>Dolphin Movie From Top Cat</A>

 

[Superstrath]

Thanks guys. The thing with the tanks is interesting. The way our boat looks, the only breather for the keel tanks is through the filler, which runs forward, with a valve, into the forward tanks. These tanks have vents into the anchor locker. We inadvertantly filled all four tanks, sailed for a few days with a family, then hit some weather. The anchor locker drain was blocked, the locker filled, the vents poured seawater into the fore tanks and therefore the keel tanks. Once the fore tanks were full, the lids, which had poor seals, leaked copiously into the cabin and heads. We noticed this when the galley sole was awash! We were, of course diving through every wave, and on return to base and pumping out we changed the trim by over six inches! So these tanks forward should be full of air then? That's what we thought, but ours must have been modified.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[rickwat]

Rudder angles/tacking

I have an 85 Snowgoose completed by previous owner. I suspect there should be 20degrees movement each way but mine must have been offset in build and I get 25degrees to right and only about 15 to left - I would be interested to know if yours works same both ways. I think there are sound design reasons for limiting the range (apart from the fact the hulls are a bit narrow where the rudder levers move).

Tacking I find best approached with gusto to get some momentum to overcome the wind opposing you on the bow. As you say the mainsail can also act against you too much sometimes - if you think this is happening let the tension off the mainsheet. So ideally I would be doing 4Knots+ at 60Degrees apparent and swing the wheel on to full opposite lock, let the tension off the mainsheet, start slackening the genoa sheet and hold it quite loose as the bows approach dead into the wind and continue holding it in a bellow as the nose goes through the wind so the bellow is pulling the nose round then quickly sheet in on the other winch and retension the mainsheet. Come round to about 60deg on the other side before reducing angle if required.

You also mention the smallness of the mainsail. As the genoa does most of the work I find in winds over about 15knots apparent it's often better to sail with genoa alone.

Rick

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Superstrath]

Re: Rudder angles/tacking

My technician(!) measured the rudder angle yesterday at about 20 degrees each way. We took her out into a flat calm, and when running astern and geting a bit of speed up, the rudders actually fed back to the wheel through the hydraulics. Much more angle and it might have broken something, so I suppose there is a good reason. We're just used to monohulls that you can spin on a sixpence, I guess.
We have an in-mast main, and it would not be a big hassle to furl it as part of a tack - there was no wind yesterday so we couldn't try. We have tried to tack from about 7 knots recently and it just stalls, but in the spring we'll try all the options.
We're going to look into the for'ard tanks with a search camera - it's possible that the filler pipe that should run through the tank is split or something, although I can't imagine how to go about fixing it if this is the case, as the only access is through the lids on top of them, and access to those is too tight to get at easily! How do the keel tanks breathe?
Thanks again.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[timevans2000]

Re: Rudder angles/tacking

The front of each hull is a crash compartment not a water tank! The crash compartments should be split in 2 by a horizontal bulkhead. You should have a removable access cover on the compartment that is above the water line and ideally a screw down access hatch for the lower compartment.

You should be getting about 45 degrees on your rudders on full lock. You may have the wrong ram fitted to the hydraulic steering?

You should not have a problem tacking if you back the genoa when you tack. This is fairly standard on most cats. I don't find turning more gently makes any difference. I just wack the helm over and keep the genoa backed until the boat has passed through the wind. It helps if you free the main sheet a little before you tack also.

My water tank filler pipes are on the side decks not at the front of the boat. The tank breathers discharge over the wash hand basin in the port aft cabin and the sink in the galley.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[timevans2000]

Re: Rudder angles/tacking

I had a similar problem with the rudders having unequal movement. I solved this by moving the fixing point for the ram. Also I have a lot more rudder angle than you. The rudder touches the hull on both sides at the end of its range even though I have lengthened the bottom hinges to push the rudders away from the hull a little.
As a result of these mods, she does tack a lot better.

I agree with your view on the main sail and releasing some of the tension before tacking.

If the water is reasonably flat I hold on to all sail up to about 23 knots of apparent wind even though I have a 6 ft taller than standard rig and a 15 % greater sail area.
In bumpy weather I would reef down to my second reef and put a few turns in the genoa assuming we are going to windward. If we were off the wind we would hold on to sail a lot longer but ultimately drop the main completely and run on just the genoa

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Robin]

Re: Rudder angles/tacking

As a monohull user with no Cat knowledge other than friends had a Snowgoose, I would question an in-mast main in this application. You loose a significant amount of mainsail area (and it is a small main to start with) and also lose area in the leech where it has the most effect especially on the sail balance/ability to turn into or across the wind. I would have thought that to help tack reducing the headsail rather than the main would be the way to try, otherwise building up a bit of momentum first before starting a tack, but then I come from a monohull viewpoint.

There has to be a definitive answer to this though surely, the Snowgoose has too good a reputation as a sailer for this to be normal.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Superstrath]

Re: Tanks

We won't know about the tanks until we can get a camera in which will be a couple of weeks. The upper chamber is used as storage for brushes, oars etc., there is an opening in the after bulkhead about 2 foot by 10 inches. The top of the tank has a ships-lifeboat style cam-lock cover, like the ones on top of the keel tanks. Once we've sussed it, it wouldn't be impossible to fit new fillers to the side decks and arrange breathers. The valve between the keel and forard tanks can then be left closed, returning the tanks to their original purpose!

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Superstrath]

Re: Rudder angles/tacking

Thanks for all replies. The furling main was not our choice - and we're stuck with it for the forseeable future! If conditions are right, the current rig gives impressive acceleration and speed as it is - plus ease of sail handling. Even the little stay-sail is on a roller.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[timevans2000]

Re: Tanks

I had the aluminium cam lock type covers on my keel water tanks. They leaked like hell. I changed them for Henderson screw down covers which are ok.

I can only assume that if they are using the bottom section of the crash comparment as a tank, it was for harbour use only. This is not the place to put weight in a cat when sailing.

Other things worth checking why you are at it are the skegs. Mine were half full of water from the s/s rudder hinges leaking. I cut access hatches in to the skegs from the aft cabins so they could be inspected. Also my rudders were the same due to leaks from the s/s hinge fixing.

Also, check your nacelle out. Mine had water in it.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Birdseye]

Re: Tanks

The tank top hatches on my Quest are Henderson. They are watertight - and need tio be since one of the safety features of the Prouts is that, should the keels hit something and be holed, the water tank tops stop water getting into the boat.

The compartments at both the front and back of the boat are flotation tanks and should be effectively sealed. So the breather from the front bulkhead of the water tank is usually a flexible pipe (with one way valve) that you can put into either sink. Not the best of systems but it works.

The Snowgoose does not sail as well as the Quest, and neither are totally reliable tackers. First requirement is good crew / helm co-ordination. get up good boat speed, come up to the wind, through the wind, but dont release the genny sheets until almost on the wind on the other tack. Even then, you will go from 6 knots almost down to one knot. Cock it up and you start going backward. No problem, just reverse the rudder, and once you are on the intended course, correct the rudder and start going forward again. You'll not beat a cruiser racer mono in a tacking duel, but you wont lose much because you accelerate faster.

There should be rudder adjustment at the ball joints at the top of the rudder arms. Centre the wheel, make sure the ram is mid stroke, and then adjust the steering arms at the rudders to get the rudders straight ahead. I believe there should be some toe in, but suggest you talk to Prout (or their successors whose name I cant remember) to find out.

Finally, whatever anyone tells you, these cats (and the HT) are motorsailers when hard on the wind in a choppy sea. Windward work in a flat sea is great, but in rough water either change direction or put on the engine.

Incidentally, one thing that will definitely mess up your ability to tack is a fouled hull. Keep the bottom clean

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Birdseye]

Re: Tanks

Incidentally, anyone know of a Prout Owners web site / club? There used to be a factory one, but now they have gone, and their successors are building French style cats, it would be nice to have an organisation for the owners of the classic versions

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Superstrath]

Re: Tacking

We've worked out that NOT leting the genny sheets fly until it's through the wind, as Birdseye suggests, makes sense. A quick diagram showed that once through the wind, the now effectively backed genny will keep pushing through - will even from an attitude not quite through the wind. Backing the sail early must surely hamper the tack?
I'm starting to regret taking her out of the water before I've satisfied my curiosity!

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[ex-Gladys]

Re: Tacking

V.experienced small cat sailor here. Standard practice in a TOrnado type cat is to leave the (large relative to jib) main heaved in, leave jib sheeted in and put helm down from a non-pinched course. As boat crosses eye of wind and starts to bear away, release jib sheet and start to re sheet on new side. ease main. The main pushes the boat up to wind, the jib keeps the rotation going and easing the main stops it weather cocking again. Also works a treat in a firebird.

Small Una rig cats (hobie 17) are buggers. You can hit stays easily, because all stages are the same, excpet you may cop a wave that stops the rotation. Then you push the boom out on the side you want to be on, engage reverse and reverse the helm. The weight of a Snowgoose should prevent the latter, but always go back to basic principles. You need the main to push you around, and the genny to take over near staays.

<hr width=100% size=1>Larry Botheras

Anderson 26 "Amber"