Slab reefing on a ketch, worth bothering with?

[steve yates]

My westerly ketch has the old roller reefing boom system, which I have never used. She sails fine up to F5, when it starts hitting 6 I just drop the main and she sails great under genny and mizzen.
Fine for coastal sailing but I’m hoping to take her further afield to faroes and iceland in next couple of years, and wondering if I should invest in slab reefing for the main while I’m doing everything else to her.

Those of you that have or have had ketches, is it a worthwhile addition? I’m thinking relying on a big partially furled genoa in F8 could quickly become a world of trouble!

 

[Minerva]

What m^2 size is your mizzen and how does that compare to the m^2 of your main at the third reef?

 

[johnalison]

I have never owned a ketch but my first thought is that it might be worthwhile if you can bring the reefing lines back to the cockpit, otherwise the difference might not be worth the effort, and a second, smaller, jib would see more use.

 

[steve yates]

What m^2 size is your mizzen and how does that compare to the m^2 of your main at the third reef?

Thats a very good point, its about 55sqm, the mainsails around the 200sqm mark so even triple reefed its probaby a bit bigger than the mizzen, and the mizzen is very flatcut. Now I think about it, I may even have a storm trysail in the garage thats never been used. So jig & jigger could remain as default, and maybe add another sail track to use the storm sail when I get scared

 

[Tranona]

I hope you mean sq ft rather than sqm! Converting to slab reefing is expensive particularly if you are bringing back to the cockpit. blocks, organisers, clutches winches and you can easily clock up £2k+ (just done it!) Difficult to get right if you want single line. For the minimal amount of reefing you will do roller is simple except that the sail shape and boom droop become an issue after a couple of rolls.

 

[Minerva]

I hope you mean sq ft rather than sqm! Converting to slab reefing is expensive particularly if you are bringing back to the cockpit. blocks, organisers, clutches winches and you can easily clock up £2k+ (just done it!) Difficult to get right if you want single line. For the minimal amount of reefing you will do roller is simple except that the sail shape and boom droop become an issue after a couple of rolls.

Did you miss his previous thread where he was discussing rigging his westerly with the rig from the Cutty Sark?

 

[steve yates]

I hope you mean sq ft rather than sqm! Converting to slab reefing is expensive particularly if you are bringing back to the cockpit. blocks, organisers, clutches winches and you can easily clock up £2k+ (just done it!) Difficult to get right if you want single line. For the minimal amount of reefing you will do roller is simple except that the sail shape and boom droop become an issue after a couple of rolls.

Sorry, yes sq ft!! And no I wasn’t bringing it back to the cockpit, as you say thats getting quite complicated & expensive.

 

[14K478]

Teaching Grandma but I promise I will get to the point!

The “theory” of sail reduction is that as you reduce sail you bring the remaining sail area inboard and close to the CG and the CLR.

This is because firstly the crew don’t have to go to the ends of the boat, where the motion is more violent, to make adjustments, and secondly as the boat is alternately becalmed in the trough and subjected to the full force of the wind on the crests, the sail area being concentrated together above the CLR means that the boat doesn’t get different things happening to the sails that are set at each end.

After all that rehearsal of what you already know, I will get to the point:

I suggest leaving the roller reefing as it is and continuing to do as you do but adding a trysail and maybe a spitfire jib on its own stay.

Of course if possible the trysail should live on deck in its bag with the luff slides already in the track (I have the luxury of a separate track but a “set of points” is fine too).

So the “worse than F6” set up would be:
Set trysail. Set spitfire (if needed)
Roll headsail up completely.
Stow mizzen.

It may well be that she doesn’t need a spitfire at all because the windage of the masts will help her to lie-to. Could be worth an experiment.

 

[dunedin]

Teaching Grandma but I promise I will get to the point!

The “theory” of sail reduction is that as you reduce sail you bring the remaining sail area inboard and close to the CG and the CLR.

This is because firstly the crew don’t have to go to the ends of the boat, where the motion is more violent, to make adjustments, and secondly as the boat is alternately becalmed in the trough and subjected to the full force of the wind on the crests, the sail area being concentrated together above the CLR means that the boat doesn’t get different things happening to the sails that are set at each end.

After all that rehearsal of what you already know, I will get to the point:

I suggest leaving the roller reefing as it is and continuing to do as you do but adding a trysail and maybe a spitfire jib on its own stay.

Of course if possible the trysail should live on deck in its bag with the luff slides already in the track (I have the luxury of a separate track but a “set of points” is fine too).

So the “worse than F6” set up would be:
Set trysail. Set spitfire (if needed)
Roll headsail up completely.
Stow mizzen.

It may well be that she doesn’t need a spitfire at all because the windage of the masts will help her to lie-to. Could be worth an experiment.

I would agree with the principle of being able to set smaller sails closer to the centre of the boat.
And dont see why at mast reefing - even just one deep reef should be expensive (I added a third reef to our sail quite cheaply).

What is would disagree with is the concept of a trysail on most boats. I believe that the expert on deep southern ocean Skip Novac is also sceptical, preferring a deep 4th reef over a separate trysail.
When it gets so bad you need less than 3rd reef, the last thing you want to be doing is going on deck dropping the main, trying to secure the sail and boom, then setting a trysail.

We tried out a trysail mid Atlantic on a calm day. Even with a dedicated track and a calm day it was a lot of deck work. And with rigid kicker the boom and mainsail got in the way. Plus tricky to stabilise boom without some sail up. The trysail was binned and stuck with deep 3rd reef.

 

[14K478]

I would agree with the principle of being able to set smaller sails closer to the centre of the boat.
And dont see why at mast reefing - even just one deep reef should be expensive (I added a third reef to our sail quite cheaply).

What is would disagree with is the concept of a trysail on most boats. I believe that the expert on deep southern ocean Skip Novac is also sceptical, preferring a deep 4th reef over a separate trysail.
When it gets so bad you need less than 3rd reef, the last thing you want to be doing is going on deck dropping the main, trying to secure the sail and boom, then setting a trysail.

We tried out a trysail mid Atlantic on a calm day. Even with a dedicated track and a calm day it was a lot of deck work. And with rigid kicker the boom and mainsail got in the way. Plus tricky to stabilise boom without some sail up. The trysail was binned and stuck with deep 3rd reef.

My experience has been different.

If there is a rigid kicker, then the boom is a problem unless the kicker allows you to get the boom end on deck and lashed, or in a rigid gallows.

I am not going to push the point.

I had a gaff cutter with a roller boom for a very long time; we had reef cringles and eyelets at the deep reef position and when we had rolled most of the sail up it was not hard to use lashings for the deep reef.

That’s perhaps the simplest and cheapest solution.

 

[steve yates]

Teaching Grandma but I promise I will get to the point!

The “theory” of sail reduction is that as you reduce sail you bring the remaining sail area inboard and close to the CG and the CLR.

This is because firstly the crew don’t have to go to the ends of the boat, where the motion is more violent, to make adjustments, and secondly as the boat is alternately becalmed in the trough and subjected to the full force of the wind on the crests, the sail area being concentrated together above the CLR means that the boat doesn’t get different things happening to the sails that are set at each end.

After all that rehearsal of what you already know, I will get to the point:

I suggest leaving the roller reefing as it is and continuing to do as you do but adding a trysail and maybe a spitfire jib on its own stay.

Of course if possible the trysail should live on deck in its bag with the luff slides already in the track (I have the luxury of a separate track but a “set of points” is fine too).

So the “worse than F6” set up would be:
Set trysail. Set spitfire (if needed)
Roll headsail up completely.
Stow mizzen.

It may well be that she doesn’t need a spitfire at all because the windage of the masts will help her to lie-to. Could be worth an experiment.

Grandma knows nowt so fill your boots. For example, I am completely ignorant of what a set of points is?I thought the only options were remove main and feed in trysail or add a second track,, drop the main and run up the trysail.I wasn’t aware of other options?

 

[Tranona]

I assume you still have the boom claw and kicker on your roller boom. This helps keep control over the sail when partially rolled. However, once you have more than a couple of rolls in the boom droops unless it is tapered - fatter towards the rear. However it is unlikely you would need a deep reef as with the ketch you can do away with the main as you already do when you get above 30 knots or so. A couple of slabs at the mast would give you a bit more flexibility and a better sail shape than roller. Not difficult to arrange with a Barton reefing kit. I have that on my GH which has the same type of boom as your boat. Yiou will need to get eyes put in the sail for the reefing line and spectacles for the tack plus some form of hook for the tack at the gooseneck.