Skin Fittings - the reality for a seacock virgin

[Sailfree]

Some of the following might be known to many but all new to me and reading others posts did not prepare me.

Boat 2005 Jeanneau 43DS.

With comments on long term reliability of brass fittings on most production boats I decided to replaced them.

Bought the short handle wide jaw adjustable to add to my large water pump pliers and massive other adjustable. Tried to unbolt the fittings and they would not budge. Tried again after I had cut them off but still could budge them - maybe my lack of strength.

First one was the engine stopcock with a reverse slope water intake. Didn't fancy grinding off the head so used Fein Mutitool (plunge cutter) with metal blade. Had difficult access and could not get the ply boards that were beneath the veneer sole board up. Dropped an underfloor storage block but it wouldn't lift out nor move much in any direction due to cross members and inner GRP mouldings. Used Mutitool on top of inner washer and cut through bottom of nut and fitting. Hard going but worked. Pulled of fitting to find it also had a set screw to fix its orientation! One post warned about set screws and I had checked a couple of mine but no set screws - except on this one hidden under the antifoul!

For second one tried step drill (cone cutter) on outside of fitting.

Did not have a big enough step drill (max size 48mm) for heads out so took an angle grinder to it.

Of three methods the step drill was the easiest, the multitool was OK providing good internal access and therefore impossible to use on most of them! The grinder was difficult to keep neat and not hit the GRP hull on the opposite side to the side you are attacking!! If I was doing it again I would try knocking in wooden bungs, drilling centre pilot hole and use circular hole cutter to remove outside flange of fitting.

Next problem was removing hoses. Had loosened double SS jubilee clips but I could not budge them when insitu. With fitting out of hull I ended up using a heat gun extensively to heat plastic hose ends and finally remove them. Position of fitted hoses it is impossible to either sensibly apply a heat gun nor get into a decent position to apply the necessary force to break the seal. Also on close inspection hoses already showed signs of heavy heating to force both 32 hoses onto a 35 tail, both 25 hoses onto a 28 tail and all 4 number 19mm hoses onto a 22mm tail!! Some new hoses needed for next weekend if I cant remove 45mm of length to get un-deformed hose!!

Cleaned up holes both inside and out and fitted new skin fittings with PU40. Thought that went well - little did I know!

Tried to fit the first seacock - not enough room to turn seacock on fitting due to bulkhead. Removed handle but still not enough room. Loosened thro hull fitting nut and broke new sealant and pushed fitting out sufficient to "lean" fitting away from bulkhead to turn seacock but even then without the handle on. Resealed fitting and tightened it with seacock back to hull. Then tried to fit small 90deg bend - no way!! Again removed fitting - leaned it away and fitted bend with Loctite 572!

In the end I had to remove about 4 of the 10 throu hull fittings and needed to assemble and tighten seacock, bend and tail onto hull fitting and as last part seal and tighten hull fitting to hull.

Lessons learnt

1. Use hole saw to remove outside flange.

2. Dry assemble all fitting in final position first counting number of turns to seat bits fully down and ensuring seacock handle in proposed final position can be moved fully to both closed and open position. in my case some of these positions were "unique" with a only one of position and little latitude!

3. Assemble all fittings with Loctite with last stage being to the through hull fitting with nut full loosened. With much difficulty apply hull seal to the inside washer and all round the outside flange. Finally tighten nut on thro hull fitting!

4. Not sure if not better to apply sealant to through hull fitting and accept an amount of clear up in moving/"leaning" it to get seacock and elbow and tail bolted up tight rather than trying to apply sealant internally with all the fittings assembled. Sealing outside flange is easy at any stage.

EDIT add No 5! I followed previous advice on here and used PU40 sealant from Toolstation (£4?) and loctite 572. Both cure more slowly than others and enabled me to overcome the problems on the day. Had the sealant gone off I would have been grinding off new fittings to try assembling again a different way!!

EDIT add No6! Take photos (mobile phone?) and sketch to record exact seacock handle positions before removal but beware as both thro hull fittings and valve lever were longer than originals so had to modify some positions.

Trust this helps others with Seacock assemblies that were installed before any internal bulkheads, mouldings and deck.

The sad thing is with little extra work they could have positioned all the fittings in much more accessible post build positions but that's why they are economic production boats - little thought to post build maintenance and using brass fittings instead of CR ones.

Post made to assist others but sure a number will use it to criticise AWB's, justify paying 2-3 x the price for their quality boat and tell me the keel will fall off next! I would point out that boat has survived 9 years charter use without falling to bits!!

 

[lampshuk]

Thanks, Sailfree. A very useful post. I am about to go through the same thing so read it with great interest.

I consulted a local marine engineer and he said that trying to remove fittings or seacocks other than by cutting was unlikely to be successful. He suggested an angle grinder on the outside (a series of criss-cross cuts) to remove flanges, then just poke them in. Do you think this could have worked?

Looks like you used metal fittings? Did you consider plastic? And regarding the engine water inlet, did you have a 1:1 replacement, or have to fit a new type of water filter? I can't see a plastic one to match my Moody 31's existing metal version.

I think my non-DZR fittings look fine ( but then they do, don't they?) so trying to put the job off as long as possible. I Need to look carefully at the wording of the Insurance Company's interpretation of the surveyor's report.

 

[prv]

I consulted a local marine engineer and he said that trying to remove fittings or seacocks other than by cutting was unlikely to be successful.

Agree. All the ones I've removed (on both boats) came out in bits despite attempts with some very large spanners.

He suggested an angle grinder on the outside (a series of criss-cross cuts) to remove flanges, then just poke them in. Do you think this could have worked?

I guess if a pro mechanic suggests it then it's likely to work, but I've had best results with a correctly-sized holesaw located using a wooden plug. It sounds like Roger agrees. I didn't use the centre pilot drill, though, just fitted the holesaw body around the protruding plug.

Looks like you used metal fittings? Did you consider plastic?

It sounds like with Roger's tight fitting conditions, there would have been no room for the bulkier nylon fittings.

Pete

 

[jwilson]

I consulted a local marine engineer and he said that trying to remove fittings or seacocks other than by cutting was unlikely to be successful. He suggested an angle grinder on the outside (a series of criss-cross cuts) to remove flanges, then just poke them in. Do you think this could have worked?

Found this to be quick and easy, after giving up on undoing the nuts (poor access for spanners). The only underwater skin fitting on my Jeanneau that gave decent spanner access was the engine inlet, which I did manage to remove intact.

 

[Tranona]

I think my non-DZR fittings look fine ( but then they do, don't they?) so trying to put the job off as long as possible. I Need to look carefully at the wording of the Insurance Company's interpretation of the surveyor's report.

If they are the original Moody fittings they will almost certainly be DZR, although the skin fittings may be brass rather than the common (for the period) bronze.

 

[Sailfree]

I consulted a local marine engineer and he said that trying to remove fittings or seacocks other than by cutting was unlikely to be successful. He suggested an angle grinder on the outside (a series of criss-cross cuts) to remove flanges, then just poke them in. Do you think this could have worked?

Looks like you used metal fittings? Did you consider plastic? And regarding the engine water inlet, did you have a 1:1 replacement, or have to fit a new type of water filter? I can't see a plastic one to match my Moody 31's existing metal version.

I think it highly unlikely that you will be able to dismantle them insitu. Possibly your Moody has easier access but that is the main problem. Access difficult to get a short adjustable to sit nicely on the nut, difficult to get any tool in its ideal position to function 100%.

I paid for my degree as a mature student by repairing cars and crash repairs so I think I am fairly proficient at working on difficult to access nuts and hoses etc but you just cannot get into a good position to exercise the leverage to break the hose joint or undo the fittings on my boat. Plastic hoses had been heated by Jeanneau and forced on too big a tail when built!

The step drill worked well and minimal risk of damaging GRP but I had to use a small angle angle grinder on the much bigger heads outlets. With grinder it was difficult not to damage the adjacent GRP and grinding "spreads" the fitting a bit resulting in a tight interference fit even after grinding off the outside flange. As pvr previously suggested tight bung and a hole cutter exactly the right size would remove the outside flange far better IMHO. I did not start with this method as concerned cutter could damage GRP but in hindsight I think this method easier to reduce risk of GRP damage than grinder but step drill best.

If I find myself in USA again I will try to get a step cutter up to 100mm as a usefull addition to my extensive tool kit!

I got DZR fittings exactly as original from ASAP but the thro hull fittings were longer than the ones Jeanneau fitted but in some places that enabled a greater "lean" away from a bulkhead to enable seacock to be screwed on easier than an original "short" fitting.

I did not use plastic fittings as I would be concerned with them becoming brittle over time ( enough people have complained of metal levers breaking on conventional fittings!) and the necessary increased plastic wall thickness would result in oversizing the hull holes and difficult to then revert back to DZR fittings. Not sure whether plastic fittings are allowed in charter coding - boat will continue to be chartered for first 6 months.

Not sure where you are based - Happy to have a telephone chat if you wish but prefer to post experience/advice on this thread to recipricate in some small way for the good advice from others that I have read on here.

 

[Blue Drifter]

Thanks for posting Sailfree (and others for additional comments) - very useful to know as this is an upcoming job for me. I don't think I have had a single straight forward job on the boat - they all seem to bring their own unique complications which often only become apparent as the job progresses.

 

[Halo]

I used the angle grinder to remove the flanges on my skin fittings. I just went round and round the flange as gently as I could using a relatively thick disc. As soon as I could see a hairline crack starting to appear between the flange and tube section I stopped grinding and did a bit of tugging from the inside of the boat and broke the tube away pulling whole assembly into the boat and leaving the fland stuck on the outside. This was later removed with screwdriver. This approach helped me keep the grinding wheel off the hull.
In re assembling I used plenty of sikaflex for the skin fittings and "nipped them up" after the sika flex had cured.
The arrangement was a 90 degree elbow off the skin fitting into a ball valve and then a hose tail - all in bronze. I used lock rings and sika flex on the skin fitting /elbow joints and ptfe tape on the rest. I thought the ptfe tape would allow me to change the valve in future without removing the skin fitting. The lock rings allowed me to line up the valves so they could be operated without clashing.
Its an easy job but requires patience
I painted the internal surfaces of the skin fittings with Hammerite Special Metals primer for extra protection before priming and antifouling.

 

[Bru]

If they're that difficult to remove, I can't help wondering if, in fact, they needed removing anyway!

 

[Sailfree]

If they're that difficult to remove, I can't help wondering if, in fact, they needed removing anyway!

No far better to wait until the first one fails then remove the rest by diving!!

Mine showed signs of pink and were not DZR fittings but I think would have been OK for a few more years. Now let me see 10 complete fittings at £450 a weekend work v sunk boat and a few drowned yes difficult call that! I would consider your suggestion sensible if it was possible to determine the remaining strength of a corroded thro hull fitting.

It was an interesting thought to consider the remaining thickness of the hull fitting after considering the depth of thread cut into it. Not much corrosion needed there to enable weight of skin fitting/hose etc to break off with the pounding of beating into a heavy sea.

 

[Sailfree]

Its an easy job but requires patience

Depends on access not when fitting is an arm length down from cupboard door access point and hard against a bulkhead. I am sure some boats will have better access than mine but posted to warn of how difficult it can be on some boats.

Mine required 6' long arms. strength of a gorrila and lots of swear words!

 

[Tranona]

If they're that difficult to remove, I can't help wondering if, in fact, they needed removing anyway!

The difficulty of removing them is not related to their condition. Poor access and copious amounts of sealer are the factors that influence the amount of time taken and difficulty of the job. Hence the recommendation to remove the flanges rather than trying to dismantle them in situ.

 

[Blueboatman]

A tenacious effort well rewarded.
May I suggest in addition that cutting a slot across the flange allows a flat bar tyre lever to get the fitting turning in situ? Then tap it out or use a long threaded rod, plates and a spreader bar onto the hull across the fitting, 'wind' it out as you would a cutlass bearing...

Or Stilsons on the inside or two nuts and wrench

Worst case ( and it takes ages) a hacksaw blade. You cut the fitting by poking the blade up the hole( helps to cut off the internal spigot first if you can). Then the fitting can be collapsed in on itself ...

 

[Bru]

Damn, I forgot the "I'm not being serious" smiley

 

[Tranona]

Damn, I forgot the "I'm not being serious" smiley

Yes you need every bit of humour going when you try to replace the loo outlet on my Bavaria. It was painful even watching somebody else doing it for me!

 

[Sailfree]

A tenacious effort well rewarded.
May I suggest in addition that cutting a slot across the flange allows a flat bar tyre lever to get the fitting turning in situ? Then tap it out or use a long threaded rod, plates and a spreader bar onto the hull across the fitting, 'wind' it out as you would a cutlass bearing...

Or Stilsons on the inside or two nuts and wrench

Worst case ( and it takes ages) a hacksaw blade. You cut the fitting by poking the blade up the hole( helps to cut off the internal spigot first if you can). Then the fitting can be collapsed in on itself ...

You miss the point even after cutting off the outside flange and poking whole assemble into the boat I could not get off the hoses without a heat gun copiously applied to all the outside of the hoses - impossible in situ.

With fitting on the ground I could not budge any of the fittings , tail, 90 deg bend, or seacock all completely seized together - I assume with thread sealant. My large adjustable is about 18" long and water pump pliers again about 16" long. There was no way any fitting were going to be undone in situ with poor access let alone being screwed out.

Last large fitting (heads out) which I ground off the flange was only finally removed by Colhel (of this parish) pulling on it with all his strength and me hitting the closed seacock from outside with a club hammer to drive it into the hull. Previous day for half hour no sucess with my strength and a smaller hammer. Not sure what sealant Jeanneau use on the fittings but it held them in good.

 

[Sailfree]

Damn, I forgot the "I'm not being serious" smiley

Actually it was a sensible suggestion as mine were not too bad and would have lasted a few more years but see other thread where a 2001 Jeanneau (4 yrs older) all sheared through corrosion on removal. i can't think of a good way to assess the degree of de-zincification and as i said the final metal after depth of thread is very thin.

The mast is being overhauled as well at 9yrs some cracking and distortion at shroud positions. Probably be Ok for another 5-10yrs but having them plated at a price that makes my eyes water!! What price safety. Don't get me wrong I can't be a safety freak as I commute 140mls a day to London on a 1600cc motorcycle (limited to 165mph)!!

 

[Blueboatman]

You miss the point even after cutting off the outside flange and poking whole assemble into the boat I could not get off the hoses without a heat gun copiously applied to all the outside of the hoses - impossible in situ.

With fitting on the ground I could not budge any of the fittings , tail, 90 deg bend, or seacock all completely seized together - I assume with thread sealant. My large adjustable is about 18" long and water pump pliers again about 16" long. There was no way any fitting were going to be undone in situ with poor access let alone being screwed out.

Last large fitting (heads out) which I ground off the flange was only finally removed by Colhel (of this parish) pulling on it with all his strength and me hitting the closed seacock from outside with a club hammer to drive it into the hull. Previous day for half hour no sucess with my strength and a smaller hammer. Not sure what sealant Jeanneau use on the fittings but it held them in good.

Yup, ok to all that. A boiling kettle poured over usually helps too.

Separating fitting tho. Well, I wasn't there . Once off the boat an engineering vice, blowtorch and length of scaffold pole over your long wrench usually shows it who is boss ..

Anyways well done and good to take time to add to this forums practical experience base.

Prob time for that pint eh?

 

[Ammonite]

Some of the following might be known to many but all new to me and reading others posts did not prepare me.

Boat 2005 Jeanneau 43DS.

With comments on long term reliability of brass fittings on most production boats I decided to replaced them.

Bought the short handle wide jaw adjustable to add to my large water pump pliers and massive other adjustable. Tried to unbolt the fittings and they would not budge. Tried again after I had cut them off but still could budge them - maybe my lack of strength.

First one was the engine stopcock with a reverse slope water intake. Didn't fancy grinding off the head so used Fein Mutitool (plunge cutter) with metal blade. Had difficult access and could not get the ply boards that were beneath the veneer sole board up. Dropped an underfloor storage block but it wouldn't lift out nor move much in any direction due to cross members and inner GRP mouldings. Used Mutitool on top of inner washer and cut through bottom of nut and fitting. Hard going but worked. Pulled of fitting to find it also had a set screw to fix its orientation! One post warned about set screws and I had checked a couple of mine but no set screws - except on this one hidden under the antifoul!

For second one tried step drill (cone cutter) on outside of fitting.

Did not have a big enough step drill (max size 48mm) for heads out so took an angle grinder to it.

Of three methods the step drill was the easiest, the multitool was OK providing good internal access and therefore impossible to use on most of them! The grinder was difficult to keep neat and not hit the GRP hull on the opposite side to the side you are attacking!! If I was doing it again I would try knocking in wooden bungs, drilling centre pilot hole and use circular hole cutter to remove outside flange of fitting.

Next problem was removing hoses. Had loosened double SS jubilee clips but I could not budge them when insitu. With fitting out of hull I ended up using a heat gun extensively to heat plastic hose ends and finally remove them. Position of fitted hoses it is impossible to either sensibly apply a heat gun nor get into a decent position to apply the necessary force to break the seal. Also on close inspection hoses already showed signs of heavy heating to force both 32 hoses onto a 35 tail, both 25 hoses onto a 28 tail and all 4 number 19mm hoses onto a 22mm tail!! Some new hoses needed for next weekend if I cant remove 45mm of length to get un-deformed hose!!

Cleaned up holes both inside and out and fitted new skin fittings with PU40. Thought that went well - little did I know!

Tried to fit the first seacock - not enough room to turn seacock on fitting due to bulkhead. Removed handle but still not enough room. Loosened thro hull fitting nut and broke new sealant and pushed fitting out sufficient to "lean" fitting away from bulkhead to turn seacock but even then without the handle on. Resealed fitting and tightened it with seacock back to hull. Then tried to fit small 90deg bend - no way!! Again removed fitting - leaned it away and fitted bend with Loctite 572!

In the end I had to remove about 4 of the 10 throu hull fittings and needed to assemble and tighten seacock, bend and tail onto hull fitting and as last part seal and tighten hull fitting to hull.

Lessons learnt

1. Use hole saw to remove outside flange.

2. Dry assemble all fitting in final position first counting number of turns to seat bits fully down and ensuring seacock handle in proposed final position can be moved fully to both closed and open position. in my case some of these positions were "unique" with a only one of position and little latitude!

3. Assemble all fittings with Loctite with last stage being to the through hull fitting with nut full loosened. With much difficulty apply hull seal to the inside washer and all round the outside flange. Finally tighten nut on thro hull fitting!

4. Not sure if not better to apply sealant to through hull fitting and accept an amount of clear up in moving/"leaning" it to get seacock and elbow and tail bolted up tight rather than trying to apply sealant internally with all the fittings assembled. Sealing outside flange is easy at any stage.

EDIT add No 5! I followed previous advice on here and used PU40 sealant from Toolstation (£4?) and loctite 572. Both cure more slowly than others and enabled me to overcome the problems on the day. Had the sealant gone off I would have been grinding off new fittings to try assembling again a different way!!

EDIT add No6! Take photos (mobile phone?) and sketch to record exact seacock handle positions before removal but beware as both thro hull fittings and valve lever were longer than originals so had to modify some positions.

Trust this helps others with Seacock assemblies that were installed before any internal bulkheads, mouldings and deck.

The sad thing is with little extra work they could have positioned all the fittings in much more accessible post build positions but that's why they are economic production boats - little thought to post build maintenance and using brass fittings instead of CR ones.

Post made to assist others but sure a number will use it to criticise AWB's, justify paying 2-3 x the price for their quality boat and tell me the keel will fall off next! I would point out that boat has survived 9 years charter use without falling to bits!!

I appreciate this is an old thread but I wanted to pass on my thanks for recommending the use of a step drill to remove old skin fittings. I've just removed six fittings ranging in size from 3/4" BSP to 1-1/2" BSP using a 6mm-60mm step drill and it took less than an hour with not a scratch to the gelcoat! It was a cheapo drill bit off eBay and a bit snaggy but a bit of oil improved matters. If I was doing it again it would probably take half the time. Thanks again

 

[Whitlock]

I had a survey done a few years ago while a boat was out of the water. The surveyor gave a gentle tap with a hammer to a brass skin fitting and the fitting just fell to pieces. Much simpler than faffing about with drills.