Simpson and Lawrence Marine Toilet

[Dave3818]

Thanks to respondents to my query of last week I now know where I can buy a spares kit for my S-L 400 marine toilet. Information for which I am really grateful. Which leads me to another question. One respondent suggested that the toilets were a bit primitive.

I haven't had the boat very long, it is a Westerly Centaur. The toilet has never operated very satisfactorily hence the request for informtation on a spares kit. I wonder if anyone can tell me whether these toilets are generally satisfactory when properly maintained. The spares kit is fairly expensive - £50 - well on the way to buying a new toilet. I am wondering whether I should invest my money in a new model if the efficacy of the S & L is doubtful.
Thanks again,

Dave



<hr width=100% size=1>Dave

 

[boatmike]

I can only say when I had one and fitted a repair kit it worked fine for two seasons then started leaking again. I would invest in a new one with a conventional stirrup
type vertical pump. which you can get for about £100 and "deep six" the thing....

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[Mirelle]

Short answer

No. I had one, years ago; it is a fairly nasty thing with little springs and flap valves.

My advice would be to find a secondhand Baby Blake and rebuild it (buy a new one of you have Pds 1K to spare) - they are engineering of a wholly different order.

Failing that, fit a Lavac.

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[scarlett]

Steer clear of R&M stuff. It can be bad. They deny responsibilty, keep the part that failed and then refuse to comunicate. My ITT Jabsco is no trouble.





















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[sailorman]

SL 400 / 401 r a good toilet the only probs r small springs + wear in the device that the bronze "actuator" lever rubs against.
IMHO the par / jabsco is inferior, the best small boat loo is LAVAC
simple to opperate & service. its fool-proof inexpensive & if your main bilge pump is also Henderson u only req one spares kit o/board

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[HeadMistress]

Purchase price vs. cost to maintain

I agree...I can't count the number of people who've spent $500 over 10 years to keep a $100 toilet working. Replace the toilet with a Baby Blake or Lavac (also made by Blake) that will last as long as the boat will. Purchase price may be high, but in the long run, either will cost you less to own and keep working than a cheap toilet...not to mention eliminating the aggravation of a toilet that will never fail at the dock when you're the only one aboard and can run for spares, but only when you're miles offshore with a boatload of guests.



<hr width=100% size=1>Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987

 

[snowleopard]

i have two SL400s on my boat and they work pretty well. the main problem is a hair spring which holds the inlet valve shut while priming. we lived aboard for 18 months with up to 7 people on board and were quite happy with them.

for fitting in a tight space there is nothing to beat them.

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[sailorman]

plus full size seat sl 400

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[Talbot]

Re: Purchase price vs. cost to maintain

On the otherhand some of these cheap toilets do actually work. I have had a par brydon for about 10 years (the modern equivalent and identical in design is the <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.jabsco.com/prodInfoApp/servlet/DisplayProducts?typeId=JMTOM&page=0&catalogId=Marine&categoryId=JMTOI>http://www.jabsco.com/prodInfoApp/servlet/DisplayProducts?typeId=JMTOM&page=0&catalogId=Marine&categoryId=JMTOI</A> During that time I have not touched it other than in normal useage, and it has behaved perfectly. Well worth the money! /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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[boatmike]

Re: Purchase price vs. cost to maintain

Totally agree. The original Baby Blakes were all bronze and indestructable. You can only buy modern versions of them in plastic now but they still have vertical plunger type pumps where the SL 400 has a really nasty lever action pump mounted at the back of the toilet that leaks smelly unmentionable effluent into the bilge. Yuk!
In principle though I would replace an SL 400 with a LAVAC or similar for £100 rather than "mend" an SL for £50


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[HeadMistress]

Re: Purchase price vs. cost to maintain

I'm quite familiar with the Brydon Boy, which was a Canadian version of the Jabsco compact built in Canada under a licensing agreement. Unfortunately, Brydon went out of business about 15 years ago, making that toilet obsolete...no parts except a rebuild kit from Jabsco still available. I say unfortunately, because few toilets in its price range made today even come close to lasting as many trouble-free years as the Brydon Boy...the average lifespan of the comparable Jabsco made today is only about 5-7 years before it starts to need repairs, yet I continue to run across Brydon Boys that are 20 years old or more and still working.

Unfortunately, from what Mike says, the same may also be said of Baby Blakes, which is a real shame.

There is one modestly price toilet--the Raritan PH II--which is still as well-made today as it was 25 years ago...and built to last 20 years or more with minimal maintenance (keep it lubricated, rebuild every 5 years or so). It may be the only one left. I highly ecommend it, btw...it's been the top rated manual toilet under $500 in the US for a couple of decades. It's about $250 at discount in the US (rebuild kit under $40)...I don't know what it sells for in the UK, though.

<hr width=100% size=1>Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987

 

[oldsalt]

I have had 2 SL400's. Terrible toilets- they leak, the valves and spring cause frequent trouble, and are a sod to strip down. I have bought a Jabsco and am delighted with it.

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[boatmike]

Re: Purchase price vs. cost to maintain

Returning to the original question Peggie I think it was "should he spend £50 repairing an SL 400" As he can buy a new toilet complete for around £100 I believe we would say "no". However I think we are both saying "you get what you pay for" and on this basis I would say keeping in mind value for money there are 2 alternatives I would suggest at a "budget" price.
To view both go to www.asap-supplies.com and search for toilets. There you will see a large bowl JABSCO/PAR for £165 before discount. This is what I have fitted to my present boat. In fact I have two and neither has given trouble so far in 3 years of use. (The small bowl one is cheaper and just as good if your bum is not too big!) There is also for less money an imported one catalogue no 507211. I have heard many people say this is an excellent value for money product and works well. I think they are made in Croatia but I am not sure. A small bowl one of these is less than £100. Either are loads better than the SL jobbie. As with all things however there are as many opinions as there are people to express them.
As far as size is concerned I remember a poem once seen on a toilet wall.

This bloody toilet is no good at all,
The seat is too high and the hole is too small.

Someone had written underneath in a different handwriting

To which I must add the obvious retort,
Your arse is too big and your legs are too short....

Buy the appropriate size and sit comfortably............?
And remember the old adage
Don't put anything down there that has not been eaten first.....
Mike

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[Mirelle]

Baby Blakes

The genuine original Baby Blake is most definitely still available, still in production and still the second best marine toilet in the world - Blakes Lavac Taylors had their usual stand at the London Boat Show and all seemed business as usual to me.

(The best marine toilet in the world is the Blakes Victory - the Baby's big brother.)

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[boatmike]

Re: Baby Blakes

Have you seen the price?


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[Mirelle]

Re: Baby Blakes

Yes, see my earlier posting in which I recommend buying a secondhand one and restoring it with the aid of a spares kit!

Like Roll-Royce cars, spares are still available regardless of the age of the WC! Mine came with the boat, 20 years ago; according to Blakes it is about 50 years old (according to the previous owner, it replaced a Simpson-Lawrence one!)

When, in a moment of absent-mindedness, She Who Must be Obeyed put a pile of nappy wipes down it (oh, the joys of sailing with infants!) it swallowed them manfully - alas, the seacock refused!

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[HeadMistress]

We are saying the same thing, Mike

It makes no sense at all to spend $50 (or pounds...my computer doesn't have the symbol, so I have to use $) to repair a toilet that can be replaced for $100. Otoh, I also question the wisdom of replacing a $100 toilet with another equally cheap one that will only need replacing again in about 5 years. Over 20 years, that's $500 for toilets when one $200 toilet would only need another $100 or so total over that time to keep it working flawlessly. Plus, better toilets can "swallow" flushes that choke cheap toilets.

In fact, I think it IS cheap toilets that have given rise to the mandate that nothing should go down one that you haven't eaten first...it's only landlubber guests who need that instruction. Any decent toilet can handle REASONABLE amounts of "marine/rv" grade TP. That doesn't mean you have to pay the price for "marine/rv" labelling to get it though...there's nothing special about it...it's only cheap flimsy institution TP at a ridiculous price.

To determine whether any TP is safe to use in a marine toilet, tear off a sheet and put it in a glass of water overnight (it shouldn't even take that long...an hour is often enough for a positive result. If it's still and intact--or mostly intact--sheet in the morning, it's not suitable. But if the water is milky and all you see is a little "snow" when you stir it, there's NO reason it can't be flush down any marine toilet...provided it's used in limited amounts at a time--5-6 sheets is enough to get the job done, not enough to choke a toilet. But even if too much of it goes down, unless it's the wrong kind of TP, just waiting a while should dissolve it enough to flush through.

<hr width=100% size=1>Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987

 

[boatmike]

Re: We are saying the same thing, Mike

Actually Peggie I agree with everything you have said. The only thing I would point out is that very few people keep their boats for 20 years and the way some "modern" plastic boats are built these days spending £1350 on a superbly engineered toilet (the price of a "new" Baby Blake I have been told) is rather over the top! It will last longer than the boat! I have restored several very solid traditional boats in my career as a boatbuilder and in every case have overhauled a "traditional" bronze pump toilet rather than replace it with a plastic-fantastic new one. On a Westerly Centaur however, which is a 1960s design bilge keeled 26 ft family cruiser worth possibly £12,000-£16,000 I believe a Par/Jabsco that should last at least another 5 years without too much trouble is in fact quite adequate if the owner takes care of it and does not feed it matchsticks..... Spending 10% of the value of the boat on a new toilet is I am sure you agree pretty silly....
Mike

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[HeadMistress]

Re: We are saying the same thing, Mike

I heartily agree that a $1300 toilet is WAY over the top for at least 90% of boats. However, there's a lot of room between $100 and $1300 in which to shop. IMO, most people who own even small boat relatively inexpensive boats would benefit from a slightly higher quality toilet than the cheapest...if not for the durability/longer life expectancy, for the improved performance and reliability.

I've always found it interesting that so many people only want the best built BOAT they can afford, and will stretch their finances and/or buy a little older to get a good quality boat...but then insist that the cheapest toilet for it will do...even though, short of sinking, nothing spoils time aboard more than a failed toilet. Ain't human nature fascinatin' ?

<hr width=100% size=1>Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987

 

[Dave3818]

My thanks to you all for so many informative replies. I really am grateful. I will become an expert yet. After digesting all that lot. I feel a need to replace the receptacle before I discharge again!! I am still very much a novice so it's really good to be able to call upon so much experience.
Regards to you all.

Dave

<hr width=100% size=1>Dave