siezed seacock

[Niander]

hi ive just got this yacht and they seem to be siezed
its the toilet exit seacock[lever type]
it has not been used in a long time
the inlet is ok
im new to this so any advise is welcome on how to free it also the cockpit drain seacocks are very tight
they are a wheel type
hurley 22
thanx

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[Birdseye]

the wheel type are gate valves - the others might be ball valves or blakes type.

the only way to un seize seacocks is to have the boat out of the water. you might well find the gate valves need replacing - they should never be used as seacocks anyway since they usually seize and fail to open or fail to close.



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[GrahamC]

Hi
If the boat is ashore then you need to dismantle the lever type which I assume is a Blakes bronze outlet. WD40 and a little gentle heat might do the trick. Once its
out then fine grinding past to the faces worked to and fro should clean it up. Make sure you remove all the grinding medium and apply a water resistant grease before assembling. Do not try this afloat.
The wheel types are usually not marine grade and should be replaced. Stainless lever ball valves are fairly cheap and readily available.
Regards
GrahamC

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[Ivy]

If your sea cock on your heads is a Blakes, I have a copy of the instruction sheet, PM me and i will e-mail it to you.

the gate valves and ball valves, try WD40 or simmilar, otherwise change them.

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[longjohnsilver]

Gate valves

Not my experience, have had gate valves for l;ast 10+ years, never had one seize, but they are opened and closed every trip.

The main problem with any seacock is either being left permanently open or closed. Much better (and safer) that they are used.

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[AuntyRinum]

I have the same problem sometimes with the lever seacock from the heads outlet. You don't need to lift out. If the seacock is held together with two screws then all you have to do is ease the screws a fraction ( whatever you do, don't unscrew them fully)and you will find that the lever will move again. Lubricate the lever joint with 3 in 1 or similar and then tighten up the screws until you reach the point where the lever sticks again then ease off. You may get a few drops of water appearing round the lever in the unscrewing process but nothing dramatic. A quarter turn on the screws usually does it. Be bold, go slowly and let me know how you get on. Whatever you do, don't start bashing it, you'll make a hole in the boat. To keep it free just turn it often.

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[Mirelle]

Is the one with a lever a heavy bronze casting, held on to the hull with bronze bolts, with two screws each side of the lever, holding down a yoke which retains the thing (the cone)that the lever attaches to? If it is, it is a Blakes seacock - probably the best. This can be dismantled very easily if the boat is ashore or dried out - undo the yoke retaining screws (careful, they have lock nuts on the under side) and put a bit of wood, to act as a drift, into the hole from outboard. Tap it quite gently and the cone will pop out - usually all you need to do is to grease this and replace it, but if it is badly scored use a dab of grinding paste to bed it in (95% of the time this is unnecessary!)

Replace the wheel jobs (gate valves) with ball valves but be sure these are marine grade.



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[Gordonmc]

Is the heads outlet on the Port side just ahead of the bulkhead/locker? It may be the same type as on my old H22 which was a Blakes, as Mirelle suggested. If you are lucky it might just be an old one with a grease nipple under the handle when in the open position. If so you may be able to load a grease gun with hydraulic oil and force some in to free the taper.

If not, its a job to be done next time the boat is on the hard. Take off the two retaining bolts and drift the cone from the outside. The taper cone can be cleaned up with fine grinding paste as suggested, but be very diligent to clean off all the paste.

I had gate valves on the cockpit drains and never touched them all the time I had the boat, other than to keep them moving. Their only purpose is to close off the skin fittings if the reinforced plastic pipe to the cockpit fittings needs replaced or is suspect. They should not be left closed or the cockpit will fill with rainwater. In short, if the pipes are in OK condition I wouldn't worry about the cocks until next lift out... then free up or replace.

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[brianhumber]

Sounds like Blakes type. If so ease back the two lock nuts and undo the bolts by say 2 turns. Apply easing oil WD 40 and then 'gently' tap the lever sideways and if you can upwards . If the taper cock is really stuck through lack of operation over the years (not unknown on yachts I'm afraid) then you will have to have a dry out over a tide and change it/overhaul it dry.

All seacocks on any boat from 20' daysailer to 500,000t tanker need regular operation. Marine grade gatevalves with regular, correct operation will outlast any hull, but if you do not want to have a planned dry docking ashore every winter then perhaps balls would be better.
It is possible to change seacocks and valves afloat by using plugs, but make sure the plug is in the hole you take the valve off from, one of my old companys 50,000t vessels sunk in a port once because the valve was removed from the wrong overboard!! The tide mark in the engine room remained a visable reminder of this for many years afterwards.



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[Paul_H]

If youre replacing valves its worth changing the skin fittings as well. Mine looked ok on the outside but cutting them up showed they were rotten. ie de-zinced which makes the metal weak and brittle. I now see the importance of keeping wooden bungs on hand.

You cant trust previous owners/builders to use quality materials and in any case nothing lasts for ever especially dunked in salt water. I changed all my cocks with screw on bronze ball valves and skin fittings. Would have liked to use flanged valves like Groco (http://www.groco.net/) but expensive and not easily obtained in UK. Fortunately the loo outlet is a blakes that I was able to service as mentioned by other replyees.

Getting old fittings out will need inginuity and tough knuckles cos usually the retaining nut wont undo due to sealant in the thread or corrosion. One effective method of getting a fitting out is to drill a ring of close spaced holes (4-5mm) around the outside flange as close to the pipe bore as poss. The idea is to drill into the tube part of the skin fitting without drilling into the hull and then remove the flange so the fitting can be pulled inside. Use a drill punch to start the holes without skidding and a use a drill stop to prevent going too deep. The metal will be soft enough to allow the remaining bits between the drill holes to be chisseled through so the flange can be sheared off. Any drill damage done to the hull around the hole can be tidied up using poxy filler.

If theres' none fitted, stick in a plywood pad over the hole in the hull -typically 100x 100mm of 8-10mm ply. This will provide more thickness for the skin fitting and spread the load of any accidental sideways forces on the cock assembly. After cleaning off any paint around the hole, the pad can be stuck on using grp filler (the fibre stuff not the filler paste). Its easier to fit the pad with a hole already in it and align with hole in the hull rather than fit a blank pad and drill the hole after.

Some folk prefer to use non-hardening goo to bed every thing in but personally I use Sikaflex cos it locks up the threads without having to overtighten. Fit the skin fitting using your preferred sealant and tighten so it can just be rotated. Screw on the cock with sealant on the thread and rotate assembly so lever is in required position then finish tightening skin fitting. Will need helper outside holding fitting with suitable tool.

Enjoy






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[Guest]

Gate - seconded ...

OK as a Surveyor I recc'd ball / marine jobs ... but have my own boats as is now with gate valves. The onlky bits that have failed in all the valves and boats I've had are the nice cosmetic red wheels !!! They fall apart after a couple of years ! But the valves are still in working order.

Regular use is the answer ......... now my Blakes Outlet is stiff as hell and I've done all the things mentioned here except actually dismantle - that was supposed to be done last lift-out but got forgotten !!! But the fact is ---- it still passes fluid when showing closed .... but doesn't pass other matter !!! I think its time to sort it out !!!!



<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[tome]

Re: Gate - seconded ...

The heads outlet is the most prone to deterioration due to bacterial action (Blakes told me this). Mine was too badly pitted to re-grind so I replaced it last season. The newer ones have a grease nipple so that you can service them in situ.

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[Guest]

Re: Gate - seconded ...

Did yours also pass water .... sorry about the pun !!!! But not solids ????

<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[KMM]

I had similar problem with Blakes valve ( it had three bolts holding the top down )
I posted a query here late June/early July and had some sound advice from a variety of helpful contributers.
The solution was to dry out between tides and knock the cone upwards into the boat using a drift, regrind, grease, and adjust. Apart from waiting for the tide , it was a 20min job. It is now as smooth as could be desired.
Check back on the original post to gain more advice.


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[rex_seadog]

Re: Gate - seconded ...

When we bought our boat about 5 years ago the Blakes valves were seized solid and would'nt yield to any mechanical leverage even after removing the two bolts holding theyolk. By the way, this was after we had taken the boat out of the water. What eventually moved them very easily was relatively gentle heating applied by an electric hot air gun.

For the next few years during each winter refit my colleague carefully ground in the valves and regreased. Despite this, during heavy sailing we suffered water backing up the toilet even with the valves closed off and finding its way into every part of the boat (shallow bilges!). Last winter in desperation I removed the valves with a view to changing them only to realise, on close examination, that to fully shut the Blakes valve you have to turn it through about 110 degrees. Eureka! So I replaced the valves, reground them with a fairly coarse paste (as recommended by Blakes since it holds the grease better) and re-assembled so that they turn with the pressure of just two fingers - this so you don't squeeze the grease out. This season with the valves turned fully off not the trace of a leak. This year we are also using Blakes' own (expensive) grease rather than a waterproof bearing grease but I doubt if this makes much difference - perhaps a bit more clingy. The real trick was to turn the bug**rs off!

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[Guest]

Re: Gate - seconded ...

NOw having been at sea on tankers, worked on tricks etc. with gate / handy / ball / cone valves etc. I always understaood that if a valve stem head had a forged in it ...... line with the pipe = open, line across the pipe = closed. My oulet seacock turns 360 deg......... closed - open - closed - open - and back to closed ..... as far as I can tell !!

TEll me I'm wrong !!!!


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[rex_seadog]

Re: Gate - seconded ...

Nigel.
Yes, exactly what I thought but there's no doubt that on my Blakes seacocks the 'on' position is with the handle (and forged line on the square on top of the cone) in line and 180 degrees to the outlet pipe. Turning through 90 degrees either way is not sufficient to turn off - it requires another 15-20 degrees. In practice I now turn the handle as far as it will go so that it rests against the tail to which the pipe is connected.
When dismantled it's all fairly obvious. The hollow cone has an hole cut into one side so that when this is adjacent to the pipe the valve is open. With a 90 degree turn in either direction there is still a small overlap between this cut out and the pipe, insufficient to pass anything fairly solid but enough to allow water to pass. At 180 degrees (only possible with the handle removed), since there is only one cut out, the valve is still off.
My Blakes seacocks are the older ones without grease nipples but I believe they are identical to the current ones in all other respects.

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[tome]

Re: Gate - seconded ...

Totally agree with this, it's the same on both old and new Blakes seacocks. The handle needs to be up against the hose tail to close and opposite the tail to fully open.

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[Guest]

Re: Gate - seconded ...

I'm going to have to dismantle mine ..... UGH ! and have a better look ..... as its daft !!!

My handle exits a hole in the ford bunk lower side and has a swing of about 90 - 100 degrees...... so I may have to do a bit of surgery to the bunk side !!

Anyway - an old trick for doing valves like this - while in tidal berth that dries .... is soft wood bung wrapped with cloth ....... bang it into hole from outside. Dismantle the valve and work. If you want to then put valve back before tide no problem ..... pull bung and fit valve. Other way if tide is in ..... have everything ready to quickly put back in - preferably with someone else ready to actually do the insertion !! .... take a stout stick and push out the bung from inside .... water of course will gush in - but you have valve ready to stuff straight in ...... bolt up and mop up water. Not for the faint-hearted, but it works ...... of course depends on valve insert esign as to whether this will work.


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[andy_wilson]

If it has a grease nipple, get the best quality grease gun the auto-factors can sell you (not Halfords), and fill with sea-cock grease.

Pump it up and if you are lucky you will release it without dismantling or drying out.

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