SIBS 2015

[jrudge]

Went to SIBS yesterday afternoon for a few hours.

Sadly the weather whilst not raining was not quite as my iPhone predicted! So after enduring some 20 miles of 50 mph average speed checks with tacky signs saying "we are working but you may not see us" yeah right. .. 20 miles not 1 worker, you are clearly working your self to the bone! Anyway ..

Met with Nickh and Jimmy the builder and had a wonder round.

First impressions ... we as reported in prior years everything was identical. Enter, head past the same stands and clamber over numerous bridges. I can't help thinking that it would be a much much better show if the threw all the names is a hat and mixed it up so everyone had to take a look around as opposed to heading past everything and simply knowing what is where and walking past most of it! Maybe its just me, but a show should be different, event Tesco move stuff around in store to keep it fresh and on trend.

First stop was Fairline to look at the T53. Emmmmm. Now I am a Fairline fan ( have one at the moment and so was the last boat) but I am not sure about this one. The colour scheme did not help - navy sofas with white piping and night club toilet marble everywhere ( apparently a @20k odd extra). The boat felt small and narrow - nice side decks but at a price. Down below the master mid cabin has standing room as you enter which then dips to circa 5 feet as you move aft to the bed. Bear in mind that sir is being asked to stump up just over £1m for this and why sir, and madam, would want to crawl into bed is rather beyond me. The headboard had some nice design ( compared to a princess that Jimmy the Builder compared to Travelodge! The forward cabin seemed small. I am not an expert on 53 feet boasts ( i was 40, now 65) but to me this did not hit the spot, particularly given the price. The old T50 is a bit marmite I know, but I rather liked it. HUGE HUGE forward cabin. The brief was clearly a mid cabin at any price, but I can't see many people dropping £1m on something where you have to crawl into bed ( other than induced by booze!). My views maybe wrong and interested in the views of others.

Next we past Axopar. They have an open and a closed version. The closed version was pretty cool ( as was the open to be fair with lovely orange peel fabric) 28 feet, big sunroof, sliding side doors, sleeping area for 2, WC and a great big outboard. Your for Euro 98k inc VAT ready to go. Plotter, radio, bow thruster, heater etc. Interested? Mr Le Builder would like to form a syndicate!

http://www.axopar.fi/range/axopar-28-cabin/

Faults? Not many. It was beautifully trimmed. The "teak" seemed to be ply with lines painted on it, but £500 of tech deck would sort that. Axopar i assume will sort as the "teak" is so obvious in an otherwise smashing and well thought out product.

Next princess. The new V58 is ... stunning. Bear in mind that this is 1.2m and compared to the Targa 53 is chalk and cheese. The extra £200k ( less after a haggle no doubt) puts you into a different league. Big sun loungers, HUGE sunroof that slides right back, beamy, and a master cabin with a lovely bathroom behind the bed adjoining the engine room.

The Sport 65, that was lovely as well. but at a £2m price tag pre mr Barkes calculator getting to work. Saw some other Squadron 65 owners from Cala Dor considering a change....

There used to be a load of big boats moored along the outside of the pontoon, but this year there were none. I was left with a rather down at heel feeling. The mobo part of the show seems smaller and as above the rest is a bit same old.

That was the end of my boats and I met MifeF and his Swmbo and headed off the the Princess hospitality for a sit down and a drink, later to be joined by more forumites.

Cactus Nav have an amazing offer on a Dragonfly 6 including the sonar sender AND european charts for some £290. Everyone else on line is selling this for about £590. I wanted one for the Williams, but sadly it is too big so I did not buy anything in the end!

Lovely afternoon and great company. Thank you forum!

 

[Nigelpickin]

Thanks Jeremy, nice report and would be good to see some more thoughts from other forumites attending. Ann and I will not be able to make it this year, first time for about 7 years I think; so we only have vicarious annecdotal enjoyment....

Looking forward to the 'had to give my email address to get into the BCUK Princess stand', post....

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I will echo jrudge's comments about the number and range of boats on show at SIBS this year. Maybe some manufacturers had to make a choice between Cannes and SIBS and chose the former but given that the industry is supposed to be on the up, it was a bit sparse. The SWMBO commented that there seemed to be more sailing boats than mobos this year. The UK manufacturers were well represented of course, especially Princess who seemed to have more boats in the water than ever before

Like the OP I am gobsmacked at the prices some manufacturers are asking for their boats now but there are still makers offering good value. For example, Westwood are still offering their aft cabin 405 for less than £300k and the French manufacturers seem to manage to keep their prices down

As to my boat of the show, that would have to be a toss up between the Fleming 78 and the Nordhavn 64. The Fleming 78 displayed their usual unimpeachable engineering quality but we were slightly disappointed with the design of the accomodation which in our view gave far too much space to the cockpit and not enough to the saloon but you could say the same thing about other Flemings. The Nordhavn 64 was the only mobo at the show you could point at the horizon and just keep going in superb comfort and in the knowledge that you could plough through pretty much anything the sea could throw at you. We had a nice chat with one of the American owners of Nordhavn, Dan Streech, who was on board, and it was interesting to talk to him about the single v twin engine debate and their views on gyro v fin stabs (they very much favour fins)

Time for my annual gripe about SIBS. I don't want to have to walk past stands exhibiting collapsible dinghies and miracle cleaners and over 2 high bridges to get to the boats and component stands. Why can't visitors enter the exhibition from the Town Quay end like they used to? Still there was one small victory for common sense in that this year you could walk back to shore from the pontoons using the middle bridge instead of having to schlap all the way round to the far bridge

Nice to meet up with several other forumites and thanks to Princess for their hospiality

 

[rafiki_]

Looking forward to visiting on Wednesday. Hope the weather is kind.

 

[markdj]

Very interesting. We usually try to go every other year as coming from Ireland, accomodation etc. The new Princess v58 certainly looks really well laid out from the photos I've seen, but I might just be biased If you have photos of the show, I have setup a private event in the Princess Owner's Club for sharing, the more the merrier.

 

[Anders_P42]

It was slightly ironic the T53 was named 'no compromise' when headroom above bed in master was as you say 5'. Princess V48 master has more headroom, no idea why Fairline would see this as acceptable.

 

[petem]

That's not good that if the T53 is flawed. I can't imagine that F'line have many rolls of the dice left.

 

[Whitelighter]

I didn't see it. In fact I just seemed to drift from hospitality to hospitality.

The Flemming 78 was very nice though

 

[MapisM]

We had a nice chat with one of the American owners of Nordhavn, Dan Streech, who was on board, and it was interesting to talk to him about the single v twin engine debate and their views on gyro v fin stabs (they very much favour fins)

LOL, why am I not surprised?
While I'd seriously consider gyros for any boat capable of 30+ knots, they are so obviously pointless on a pure D boat that it's not even worth explaining why.

Otoh, I'm curious to hear what he had to say on the single vs. twin.
TBH, Jeff Leishman is the Nordhavn guy I'd rather speak with on this subject, but pretty sure they share the same views...
Fwiw, on a 64', I'd probably still stick with single. I'd begin to be in doubt above 70' or so...

 

[markdj]

I thought a gyro was the only one to work effectively for slow and at rest boats?

 

[TwoHooter]

The Fleming 78 displayed their usual unimpeachable engineering quality but we were slightly disappointed with the design of the accomodation which in our view gave far too much space to the cockpit and not enough to the saloon but you could say the same thing about other Flemings.

It's customer led. People who actually buy such boats usually want big cockpits for outdoor living. One of the biggest Nordhavn sellers was the 47 but people wanted bigger cockpits and now the 47 has gone and the 52 has replaced it. Almost the same boat but a bigger cockpit.

The Nordhavn 64 was the only mobo at the show you could point at the horizon and just keep going in superb comfort and in the knowledge that you could plough through pretty much anything the sea could throw at you.

Welcome to the Dream!

 

[MapisM]

I thought a gyro was the only one to work effectively for slow and at rest boats?

Why?

 

[jfm]

LOL, why am I not surprised?
While I'd seriously consider gyros for any boat capable of 30+ knots, they are so obviously pointless on a pure D boat that it's not even worth explaining

+1. A nordhavn with gyro would be a pretty bad choice. I doubt they've built one.

 

[admillington]

+1. A nordhavn with gyro would be a pretty bad choice. I doubt they've built one.

They are considering a Gyro for the N59CP - Semi D but never for a full D Nordhavn

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Otoh, I'm curious to hear what he had to say on the single vs. twin.

I explained that I'd always had twin engined planing boats and I asked him to 'sell' me the concept of a single engined boat. The issues of reliability and prop fouling were dealt with quickly because of course there's a get you home wing engine fitted. Streech then want to say that obviously Nordhavns were designed primarily as long distance bluewater boats and therefore fuel consumption and range were vitally important. He said that their experience had demonstrated conclusively that single engined boats delivered a significantly better fuel consumption than twin engined ones and thats why they stuck with singles. The interesting bit was when we started discussing close quarters handling in marinas. Of course he mentioned the powerful proportional hydraulic bowthrusters fitted. But he and the other Nordhavn guys on board then said that twins don't work nearly as well on a heavy deep draft D boat as they do on light shallow draft P boats as using the differential thrust of twin engines to rotate a heavy deep draft D boat just doesn't have the same immediate effect as on a light shallow draft P boat. Better to use the thrusters plus the big rudder fitted with a single engine to move either end of the boat. That plus the fact of course that 86t of deep hulled Nordhavn 64 just won't be blown about as easily as 40t of shallow hulled Ferretti 630. OK I accepted what they said and they offered to demonstrate the manoeuvrability of their single engined boats with a sea trial. I will keep an open mind on this

More generally I have to say that the N64 is the first Nordhavn we've looked at where you don't have to make any compromise on living space compared to a P boat. The asymmetric saloon (yeah I know you don't like them!) really is big, the pilot house is almost a second saloon and the sleeping cabins are really nice too. But for me, the most impressive feature was the 300lb stainless steel anchor. Awesome

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

It's customer led. People who actually buy such boats usually want big cockpits for outdoor living. One of the biggest Nordhavn sellers was the 47 but people wanted bigger cockpits and now the 47 has gone and the 52 has replaced it. Almost the same boat but a bigger cockpit.

Actually I don't buy that! Yeah maybe a few customers want a larger cockpit but the main reason is that its a cheap and easy way for manufacturers to lengthen an existing hull, call it a new model and charge a load more money for it

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

They are considering a Gyro for the N59CP - Semi D but never for a full D Nordhavn

The 59CP is an interesting boat. The website shows a design with an upper/lower cockpit, a rather small saloon and a silly looking box in the cockpit to access the engines but apparently there's another design with a smaller single level cockpit and an elongated saloon which to my mind would be much better for a cruising boat. The price seems pretty competitive too at just over £1m (ie same price as the new Targa 53) with maybe a bit of negotiation on that so a lot more competitive than say a Fleming 58 or GB 55 Aleutian. I will reserve judgement until I see it because, if the renderings are accurate, it's no looker

 

[Richard Shead]

Looking forward to visiting on Wednesday. Hope the weather is kind.

I had better go shopping!

 

[rafiki_]

I had better go shopping!

 

[MapisM]

The issues of reliability and prop fouling were dealt with quickly because of course there's a get you home wing engine fitted.

LOL, I 'kinda saw that coming, when I said that I'd have liked to have such chat with Leishman, rather than Streech.
There's much more to be said about single screw boats being as reliable as twins, and even better with regard to prop fouling (in spite of what common sense might suggest), before suggesting that a wing engine is the ultimate solution.
That sounds like their standard answer to any twin engine boater who wants to be reassured....
After all, I've yet to see a fishing trawler with a wing engine!

Re. D hull being slower to respond to twin engines while maneuvering, that is true, but I would argue that you don't actually want anything "fast" getting in the way of close quarter maneuvers. After a decade and a half with my old tub, with her 35T displacement, deep keel, twin screw and no thrusters at all, I've yet to make any damage while mooring (says the chap with fingers firmly crossed! ), while I've seen all sort of things happening with planing boats that "jump" either forward or backwards just by engaging the gear, no matter how powerful their thrusters...
Alas, yet again, most fishing trawlers have no thrusters even if single engined, and those who do only have one at the bow, for reasons that have nothing to see with maneuvering, i.e. holding the course while pulling a net between two fishing vessels.

Re. the anchor, actually 300lbs seems a bit of an overkill to me, even for a N64.
Did that boat have one anchor or two? I'd be more than happy with a main 200lbs anchor and a second one of 150lbs or so.
Btw, just as another example taken from the commercial world, I've yet to see a Nordhavn rigged with what is possibly the best ground tackle available, which is the drum (as opposed to winch), allowing steel cable to be used together with chain - hence getting a practically limitless length.
The only pleasure trawlers I've seen so far with that type of equipment were built in the US of A, I must say.