Should harbours be places of strict silence and tranquillity?

[DogWatch]

Harbours like farms are places of work and wealth generation. When did this attitude 'I have paid for it' so I demand absolute silence at all times begin?

It is one of the reasons I avoid marinas like the plague, I have been known to arrive late (after 1830) as a visitor to a marina and felt the need to creep around my boat and whisper, you can feel the misery around the pontoons, it drifts about like a dark cloud.

I am on a mooring and for the second time in the last 5 years the nearby pontoons have crept towards the moorings and I yet again feel like I am on a marina. I for example leave my wind gen running 24/7 except in mid summer as my solar then takes over. I am now so close to the pontoons that (according to the other thread on wind gen noise) I should be considerate to the people on the pontoons, they after all pay more than me; I was there first!

The amount of noise hostility around harbours is astounding, when I was fishing for a living we had names for the 'yachties' that behaved this way. A harbour is NOT a campsite, it is a living breathing place, if a boat needs work in the middle of the night so be it, if equipment needs to be run then so be it.

I wonder how many people have complained because trawlers working all hours have disturbed their beauty sleep.

 

[Seajet]

Nothing to do with creeping about like a mouse, it's a matter of being considerate.

I happen to like the normal sounds of the odd halliard tapping and the waves; hammering, loud music or screeching wind gens are not on late at night, I wouldn't have thought that needs explanation.

If a trawler was nearby making a noise I'd be in a fishing port presumably, and accept it; getting sleep is not for 'beauty' or being precious; some people have to be alert and rested when they set off, other people have children on boats...thinking of others is not some major new initiative which has just been discovered by NASA !

 

[[33964]]

When I was in a marina my kids would often get woken up late at night, especially in the summer when someone rolled back drunk, but we juts accepted it.

And usually the kids early rising (6am) evened the karma up

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

There are a lot of bits of string coming down my mast. It would be quit a job to tie them all off. Even if you did the wind would change direction and something else would make a noise.

Take a pair of good earplugs with you and you will have a quiet night in most marinas.

The odd halyard is much less of a problem than loud bachelor parties telling each other " I love you mate!" after 15 pints each.

 

[Searush]

Where do you sail DW? My home port is subject to boy racers screaming round the castle in little hot hatches, plus 1500MW of house music from speakers in wide open doors. Not to mention the usual drunks, dogs barking & seagulls fighting. The fishermen are usually out fishing.

For peace & quite I choose a lonely anchorage.

 

[Robin]

There are a lot of bits of string coming down my mast. It would be quit a job to tie them all off. Even if you did the wind would change direction and something else would make a noise.

Take a pair of good earplugs with you and you will have a quiet night in most marinas.

The odd halyard is much less of a problem than loud bachelor parties telling each other " I love you mate!" after 15 pints each.

I would bet we had more string than you do but never had rattling halyards because it is perfectly possible to prevent. I never tied off a halyard to pull it away from the mast, that is a temporary solution that doesn't last. Take the halyard ends and clip them off elsewhere. We had a spinnaker halyard, a spare genoa halyard and a staysail halyard clipped to the pulpit and the main halyard to the boom end. Pole uphauls and removable inner stay were strapped down to fittings on the coachroof away from the rig. The other ends of halyards as on most boats for years now were fed internally down the mast which was lined with a polystyrene sleeve.

Otherwise a harbour is a harbour and yes there are harbour noises. A marina however is not a harbour it is a haven within a harbour, the noises we are talking about are not part of a working harbour they are noises caused by inconsiderate folk too lazy or incompetent to prevent them, but hey why should they bother as they will probably not be on board anyway.

It isn't necessary to tip toe around in a marina in normal hours either. Outside of normal hours just tone it down. We took pride in both arriving and departing at all hours of the night from marina berths and would be upset if the people on the boat next to us even noticed, it can be done.

The reality we found was that most people are very considerate, no matter how crowded the spot is. But there is always one.

 

[DogWatch]

Otherwise a harbour is a harbour and yes there are harbour noises. A marina however is not a harbour it is a haven within a harbour,

I have a couple of problems with this;

First, most harbours are(/have) converting to marinas and the associated paraphernalia, Shops, housing, pontoons, yachts... They are pushing everyone who doesn't enjoy NCP style living out onto more open moorings. It is not the normal harbour users being a nuisance, it is the marina berth holders who are pushing apocryphal views of harbours onto us.

Second, I don't agree that a marina is a haven, just because it has pretty wooden pontoons, it's still a harbour, it is still a place to work, it is still 24hr. The deafening silence is odd. I thought we despised being called caravans on the water, yet we are acting like it. Lights out at 2130 and all that.

Live and let live, I can't believe the Europeans are this snotty, maybe we should take a leaf out of their book no?

 

[Seajet]

So what you're really saying is, you don't understand being considerate.

'Marinas are taking over harbours' ? News to me, where are these new developments then ?

What you call snotty is just being well mannered and thinking of others, it's a shame the concept is so strange to you; it's not difficult and nobodys' style is being cramped, it's just that normal people don't inflict unnecessary noise or any other avoidable pollution or nuisance on others.

 

[DogWatch]

So what you're really saying is, you don't understand being considerate.

'Marinas are taking over harbours' ? News to me, where are these new developments then ?

What you call snotty is just being well mannered and thinking of others, it's a shame the concept is so strange to you; it's not difficult and nobodys' style is being cramped, it's just that normal people don't inflict unnecessary noise or any other avoidable pollution or nuisance on others.

Are you always this aggressive? I am not sure why you are taking this so personally.

So far you have told me I am daft for creeping about my own boat when I visit the odd marina, now being well mannered and considerate is lost on me, make your sodding mind up! Did you wake this morning deciding to fight anyone and everyone or is it just me you have taken exception to?

I try to come and go from harbours without being noticed, what I don't do is to get myself in a strop if a harbour does not meet my expectations nor do I think marinas are some kind of boating utopia. If you see this as a personal slight to you, I can't help you at all.

 

[DogWatch]

Where do you sail DW? My home port is subject to boy racers screaming round the castle in little hot hatches, plus 1500MW of house music from speakers in wide open doors. Not to mention the usual drunks, dogs barking & seagulls fighting. The fishermen are usually out fishing.

For peace & quite I choose a lonely anchorage.

Oddly, I am not looking for peace and quiet, I find working harbour noises quite soothing and have no trouble sleeping through most low level din.

Yes of course for the pedants, if the boat next to me explodes/a bomb goes off/a crane falls into the water/maroons go off, I will be awoken, I am talking about a general hubbub background noise that is associated with most working harbours away from Lake Solent.

What I don't like is the Tesco matching proliferation of marinas and the demands made upon the rest of us in the once working harbour to creep around and make no noise after bedtime. It is an intolerance that I can only assume is city folk buying boats and finding the reality does not match their brochure expectations.

 

[BigJoe]

Dog watch…………………………………………….

A working harbour………………..and a " marina ", are 2 different things.

A very loud wind generator, on an unattended boat ( in a marina ) is not, in my opinion a “ part of the general hubbub background noise that is associated with most working harbours away from Lake Solent”.

 

[Robin]

When I got my first cruising boat back in 1970 marinas were few and far between (and certainly not for me), yet the friend who introduced me to my first YC way back then was renowned for nipping on board and tying off halyards even if it was a dinghy ride away in the moorings. I would submit therefore that this is not a marina irritation alone, just that in closer company more people will be annoyed by the one or two that have gone home leaving halyards to clank and wind generators to whine. The reality is these folk have most probably left with for home with no apparent noise, because the conditions were such that the halyards were not clanking and maybe the wind genny wasn't even running and they are probably unaware of any irritation caused to others. Some owners will be away from their boats for weeks too so no problem for them, just make it unpleasant unnecessarily for those on board.

I don't see why simple consideration for others is so hard to understand and the general I'm all right jack bugger anyone else attitude is becoming so prevalent across all walks of life.

It isn't rocket science to stop halyards rattling and it is much better for both the halyards and the mast too. Why for example are some people so lazy as to leave the main halyard attached to the sail and just put the sail cover on and go making clanking an absolute certainty?

Wind generators, especially the two bladed ones in marinas with shore power available why? If someone has tripped over the shorepower lead and pulled it out then quite frankly the lead was not attached right in the first place as just one coil around the electric tower leaving a slack loop at the plug/socket is all it takes to prevent it pulling out. Unofficial 'borrowing' of the electric point is easily prevented by using a lock and our marina even issued suitable ones to all berth holders and kept master keys themselves. If there are electrical devices left running on board an unattended boat then either the batteries must be adequate to cover temporary outages of shorepower or the owner should make arrangements for regular checks by someone else if they cannot do it themselves. Leaving a diesel generator running 24/7 would be considered unacceptable so why would one of those two bladed fans be any different?

What I don't like is the Tesco matching proliferation of marinas and the demands made upon the rest of us in the once working harbour to creep around and make no noise after bedtime. It is an intolerance that I can only assume is city folk buying boats and finding the reality does not match their brochure expectations.

With respect DW that is a different subject as well as being incorrect. I too don't like the proliferation of marinas in some locations any more than I like the NIMBY fights to prevent them in others. Nobody needs to creep around after bedtime, nor should they be kept awake by the lack of consideration of others, nothing to do with the noises of a working harbour at all.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

I would bet we had more string than you do but never had rattling halyards because it is perfectly possible to prevent. I never tied off a halyard to pull it away from the mast, that is a temporary solution that doesn't last. Take the halyard ends and clip them off elsewhere. We had a spinnaker halyard, a spare genoa halyard and a staysail halyard clipped to the pulpit and the main halyard to the boom end. Pole uphauls and removable inner stay were strapped down to fittings on the coachroof away from the rig. The other ends of halyards as on most boats for years now were fed internally down the mast which was lined with a polystyrene sleeve.

.

Ah, the old "I had more than you argument".

What you say has merit, but does not apply, and mine is a new boat, with a new Selden mast, so not uncommon.

Whilst it is possible to unclip certain lines, you can't do that to everything, and by the time you have added up the pole control lines, etc, I think we have around 15 bits of string emerging from the mast at various levels and all capable of making a noise at various wind angles and speeds.

Yes, tie off the big halyards, but if you are one of those who can't sleep because of the odd mast noise it really is time to buy the ear plugs.

 

[chinita]

Second, I don't agree that a marina is a haven, just because it has pretty wooden pontoons, it's still a harbour, it is still a place to work, it is still 24hr. The deafening silence is odd. I thought we despised being called caravans on the water, yet we are acting like it. Lights out at 2130 and all that.

Marina as a 'place to work' - 24 hours a day. I have not yet come across such a place.

Which particular marina are you illustrating?

 

[Robin]

Ah, the old "I had more than you argument".

What you say has merit, but does not apply, and mine is a new boat, with a new Selden mast, so not uncommon.

Whilst it is possible to unclip certain lines, you can't do that to everything, and by the time you have added up the pole control lines, etc, I think we have around 15 bits of string emerging from the mast at various levels and all capable of making a noise at various wind angles and speeds.

Yes, tie off the big halyards, but if you are one of those who can't sleep because of the odd mast noise it really is time to buy the ear plugs.

Which lines can you not keep away from the mast? The tail ends emerging at lower levels are never a problem, regardless of mast manufacturer, the working ends of the rest can be clipped to the pulpit or guardrails or the boom end and the lazyjacks (coming from spreader mounted blocks not mast mounted) stowed along the boom under the cover. The rattly in-mast type main outhauls can be tied to the boom.

We had 14 clutches on the coachroof to handle running rigging led back to the cockpit, the two genoa halyards, spinnaker and staysail halyards were all handled at the mast as were the lazyjack lines, topping lift, pole uphaul/downhaul lines and flag halyards port and starboard. No rattles! The only place a tap tap occurred was if we had burgees on the spreader flag halyards, easily solved by their removal if leaving the boat or dropping them lower down if on board wishing them to stay in place. All of this has been done without a single tie being needed.

 

[Searush]

Observation;
Hassle & aggravation is proportional to the number of people & inversely proportional to the space available.

Hence, if you are miles away, you can make as much noise as you like & no-one will hear you. If you are alongside then I will even hear you snoring. Marinas pack boats together so that the latter case applies.

Acidentally bump into someone in a rural village & you both will turn towards each other, smile & apologise. In a city centre, a fight may well occur if both people have had a few drinks, even at midday, people scowl & turn away from each other. It's all about "Lebensraum" really isn't it?

 

[maxi77]

Harbours like farms are places of work and wealth generation. When did this attitude 'I have paid for it' so I demand absolute silence at all times begin?

It is one of the reasons I avoid marinas like the plague, I have been known to arrive late (after 1830) as a visitor to a marina and felt the need to creep around my boat and whisper, you can feel the misery around the pontoons, it drifts about like a dark cloud.

I am on a mooring and for the second time in the last 5 years the nearby pontoons have crept towards the moorings and I yet again feel like I am on a marina. I for example leave my wind gen running 24/7 except in mid summer as my solar then takes over. I am now so close to the pontoons that (according to the other thread on wind gen noise) I should be considerate to the people on the pontoons, they after all pay more than me; I was there first!

The amount of noise hostility around harbours is astounding, when I was fishing for a living we had names for the 'yachties' that behaved this way. A harbour is NOT a campsite, it is a living breathing place, if a boat needs work in the middle of the night so be it, if equipment needs to be run then so be it.

I wonder how many people have complained because trawlers working all hours have disturbed their beauty sleep.

Ovwer the years I have visited many fishing harbours and do not R not find their activities in the slightest annoying. In fact I admire the long hours they work and the dangers they accept to put fish on my plate, though I may moan severely about their pot markers. The problem is that in reality far too few boat owners ever sleep on their boats in their home marinas, and thus fail to see just how annoying the noises coming from their boat can be. As I have said my lug holes are shot and as a result I am pretty noise tolerant, but some of the higher output wind generators are very annoying when the wind gets up.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

Which lines can you not keep away from the mast? The tail ends emerging at lower levels are never a problem, regardless of mast manufacturer, the working ends of the rest can be clipped to the pulpit or guardrails or the boom end and the lazyjacks (coming from spreader mounted blocks not mast mounted) stowed along the boom under the cover. The rattly in-mast type main outhauls can be tied to the boom.

We had 14 clutches on the coachroof to handle running rigging led back to the cockpit, the two genoa halyards, spinnaker and staysail halyards were all handled at the mast as were the lazyjack lines, topping lift, pole uphaul/downhaul lines and flag halyards port and starboard. No rattles! The only place a tap tap occurred was if we had burgees on the spreader flag halyards, easily solved by their removal if leaving the boat or dropping them lower down if on board wishing them to stay in place. All of this has been done without a single tie being needed.

Please feel free to moor up next to me. I shall then not need my ear plugs.

 

[Robin]

Please feel free to moor up next to me. I shall then not need my ear plugs.

You need them anyway in Yarmouth, if only for the traffic rumbling over the swing bridge! Anyway you would need to be in Florida now for us to raft up, no halyards or wind genny any more but we do have a 15Kw diesel one... But then with nice neighbours we would be using our 660W of solar panels if not plugged in.

 

[GrahamM376]

Dog watch…………………………………………….

A working harbour………………..and a " marina ", are 2 different things.

A very loud wind generator, on an unattended boat ( in a marina ) is not, in my opinion a “ part of the general hubbub background noise that is associated with most working harbours away from Lake Solent”.

Agreed. Only problem around here is that if you want peace and quiet DON'T go into a marina. They're surrounded by bars with tone deaf pi**artists singing karaoke until 2 or 3 am, then often partying on a nearby gin palace afterwards.

Some wind gennys are a PITA and should be tied off, as should halyards. I tend to take the attitude that, if I can hear your radio in the evening when I'm down below on my boat, it's too loud whereas daytime is different, that's when we sort the noisy jobs when the previous nights pi** artists are hung over and trying to sleep!