should delivery crew have to pay

[sail sail]

Just reading the arc thread about crew paying to do the trip. What about crew for deliveries? I have done a bit of crewing for delivery companies now and it is a good way to build miles and see some new places. A friend is considering paying pyd to do an apprenticeship. http://www.pydww.co.uk/crew/sailing-apprentice-scheme/.

Is this right? I guess the mca dont mind? I think he could save his money. Ive even been paid to go as crew for a professional delivery.

 

[Joker]

I couldn't see any indication as to the size of the fees. Whilst I can see the merit of it in some ways, it seems a very good way of getting unpaid labour, but people actually to pay you for working for you! I also have the feeling that they're using the 'apprenticeship' idea as a cover.

 

[westernman]

Just reading the arc thread about crew paying to do the trip. What about crew for deliveries? I have done a bit of crewing for delivery companies now and it is a good way to build miles and see some new places. A friend is considering paying pyd to do an apprenticeship. http://www.pydww.co.uk/crew/sailing-apprentice-scheme/.

Is this right? I guess the mca dont mind? I think he could save his money. Ive even been paid to go as crew for a professional delivery.

I guess they are not paying for their passage on the boat - but making a contribution to the cost of food and fuel. Also part of the fee goes on airline tickets etc to get them to the point of departure etc.

It seems like a fine line to me.

For instance on the delivery trip for my boat, they were well over 60 miles form a safe haven for some of the trip (across Biscay) and my boat was coded only to category 2. I guess many boats on similar trips are not coded at all.


I think someone from PYD reads these forums so they may well comment.

 

[V1701]

Unless the apprentice is additional to the normal complement of paid crew, it could be counter productive, i.e. if all the professional delivery companies offered such an "apprenticeship" at the expense of paid positions there'd be fewer jobs for those suitably qualified, so bad for the industry and selfish on the part of the company operating in this way. There are plenty of people out there looking for crew of varying levels of ability in return for nothing more than share of food, fuel & ports of call expenses. My own first sailing experience was crewing 1500 miles across the Indian Ocean from Thailand to Maldives, in return for share of food, fuel, ports of call and arranged through Findacrew. I also worked for a time as a scuba instructor and saw something similar, i.e. people who could afford to working for nothing, not good for the industry in the long run and prejudicial against us mere mortals who pay good money to get trained and subsequently find it difficult to get any work. Also reminiscent of the debate around so called internships, there are probably some good ones but it's mostly employers taking advantage...

 

[Pete R]

Is this right? I guess the mca dont mind? I think he could save his money. Ive even been paid to go as crew for a professional delivery.

I can't see why the MCA would mind.

Firstly PYD are only asking for some admin and travel costs which I assume is just the part of getting to the airport as flights and all on board expenses are included according to that link. All depends on how much they want but seems like a good way of getting experience and then, in the future, maybe getting work from them as a skipper .

Secondly the MCA are only concerned with British flagged boats operating commercially. As far as I am aware a normal delivery trip would not be anything to do with them.

If you have been paid to be crew of a delivery then I would say you were very lucky indeed. Even as first mate I have never been paid although did get a good tip once.

 

[flipper]

I have done a number of deliveries and paid my own way. It had also led to some spectacular sailing/racing etc.
The skipper usually pays for boat costs and crew chip in for food and pay their own travel costs.
I helped bring a classic yacht back from Dunkirk to Ipswich for a forumite. For the price of a train/ferry ticket I got a brilliant weekend of sailing and made a good friend. If you had to pay to go for a weekend sailing you are looking at a few hundred quid.

Different if you expect to make a living out of it though.

 

[alant]

I can't see why the MCA would mind.

Firstly PYD are only asking for some admin and travel costs which I assume is just the part of getting to the airport as flights and all on board expenses are included according to that link. All depends on how much they want but seems like a good way of getting experience and then, in the future, maybe getting work from them as a skipper .

Secondly the MCA are only concerned with British flagged boats operating commercially. As far as I am aware a normal delivery trip would not be anything to do with them.

If you have been paid to be crew of a delivery then I would say you were very lucky indeed. Even as first mate I have never been paid although did get a good tip once.

If PYD are the principals, then the owner is paying them & must be a commercial delivery & would require correct manning quals etc.

 

[RupertW]

I think like any business they will get as much profit out of it as possible, so for a fun job like acting or sailing people get paid peanuts or even contribute to own expenses or have to pay.

If a drain cleaning company offered similar terms they might not get a lot of takers.

When I did deliveries as crew I was offered expenses, food, fuel, travel etc but no daily pay. As first mate I got a small fixed fee on top. If I was running a delivery company and got loads of suitable takers for those terms, I would keep reducing the benefits until people stopped applying, then put the last benefit back.

 

[Pete R]

If PYD are the principals, then the owner is paying them & must be a commercial delivery & would require correct manning quals etc.

I always thought that coding and all that comes with it only applies if the owner of the boat is being paid, not if the owner is paying someone else.

If you are correct then every time someone pays me to move their boat they first have to get it coded. Can that be correct? Or are you getting confused with the use of the word "commercial"?

 

[footsoldier]

I don't think that this can be viewed as PYD purely trying to charge for sailing opportunities, as implied.

As I understand it, PYD originally introduced the Apprentice scheme because of their concerns about the variable quality and experience of recently qualified Yachtmaster Offshore holders applying for employment as skippers - particularly those from "fast-track" schemes. The Apprenticeship is intended to ensure that they are brought up to the standard sought by PYD before they can be let loose to skipper on their own.

The payment thus is for the "course" overheads, not for the actual sailing.

 

[snooks]

The payment thus is for the "course" overheads, not for the actual sailing.

According to the link in the first post:

What Do You Get For Your Money?

• At least 10,000 nautical miles at sea including a Yachtmaster Ocean qualifying passage.
• The chance to complete the practical requirements of the RYA/ MCA Yachtmaster Ocean Certificate (for which you must have Yachtmaster Offshore first in order to qualify).
• Experience aboard different yachts with varying levels of complexity.
• All flights to and from vessels.
• Travel and Medical Insurance for the duration of the scheme.
• All onboard victuals.
• Crew uniform of Jacket and Polo shirts.
• Help and guidance from Skippers with years of experience and many thousands of sea miles.
• Astro navigation learning pack.
• Regular progress reviews.
• Course completion certificate.
• Detailed reference on completion of course.

So, you don't have to worry about travel, food or insurance and you get 10,000 miles of sailing...Cheaper than owning your own boat for a few years

Qualifications are one thing, experience is another. If you want a structured course to give you the experience you may be lacking and you're happy to pay for it I don't see the problem

 

[capnsensible]

The payment thus is for the "course" overheads, not for the actual sailing.

That was used as defence in a case bought by the MCA. It failed and resulted in a fine of seventeen and a half grand, payable in 6 months or goto jail.

 

[footsoldier]

That was used as defence in a case bought by the MCA. It failed and resulted in a fine of seventeen and a half grand, payable in 6 months or goto jail.

Oops! Perhaps someone had better tell Phil Coatesworth.

 

[capnsensible]

To do it, one must have an absolute watertight, airtight, bomb proof, lawyer researched contract sprinkled with oofle dust.

Or the boogey man will get you!!

 

[starfire]

Oops! Perhaps someone had better tell Phil Coatesworth.

No longer at the helm :-

"Mark Matthews has now assumed the MD position at pyd and our head office has also relocated to Heswall."


I have done a few trips for pyd, at a time when I was time poor but could afford the cost of being away from work & the small contribution required.

I used to get calls from Jan about prospective trips, I did say to her that while I was more available time wise, I was struggling money wise & that while I could do the trip, I could not afford to contribute. needless to say, the calls got less & less as it seems no contribution does not fit their business plan.

Shame really, I enjoyed the trips & learned a lot from some of the skippers.

 

[Pete R]

Shame really, I enjoyed the trips & learned a lot from some of the skippers.

Lots of other companies, some on here, that will pay travel and on board expenses and you will also learn a great deal from.

 

[Simondjuk]

Was that "what do you get for your money" blurb cribbed from a sailing school's website do you think?

 

[Seajet]

I think some people here should read '2 years before the mast' by Dana...

Unpaid labour is about the right description; I have known very good sailors rooked out of 6 months pay by unscrupulous wealthy boat owners, equally I've met berks I wouldn't trust with a box of matches being paid to deliver boats ( badly damaged by the end ) across the Atlantic.

I once fancied sailing instruction as a career ( I did it informally as a youngster ) but when I managed to get on a YM offshore course with seriously good instructors, and saw their 7 days a week sailing / cooking / maintaining for the punters / lifestyle, I very soon back-tracked !

People should be paid for their skills, and even if inexperiencied they will be jolly useful, from steering to cooking; this is why the 'minimum wage' was introduced, and slavery is generally frowned on.

 

[alant]

I always thought that coding and all that comes with it only applies if the owner of the boat is being paid, not if the owner is paying someone else.

If you are correct then every time someone pays me to move their boat they first have to get it coded. Can that be correct? Or are you getting confused with the use of the word "commercial"?

Commercial in the MCA sense, is getting paid whilst crewing/skippering the vessel.

 

[westernman]

Commercial in the MCA sense, is getting paid whilst crewing/skippering the vessel.

Or paying some one for the privilege of being on the vessel (except for reasonable expenses....).