Shocking increase at BWML Poplar/Limehouse London

[Cap'n FB]

Hello

Have lived at Poplar Dock Marina for 4+ years. Notified as of today that mooring fees increasing by (for my vessel) a minimum of 125% in April based on residential planning permission being granted. This hike is less/more for some vessels dependent on size however new mooring fees will be minimum 9k annual fee for liveaboards.

Some years ago we were informed we were paying an additional £500 per berth to secure residential status. Anything this company puts in writing seems to be allowed to be rescinded with a few apologies some months later. We have a brilliant community here, huge cross section of people, but would appreciate some advice. Anyone from Limehouse out there having the same issue??

If this goes ahead I don't know who their client base could be but none of the existing residents will be able to afford it. Also whilst we're right by Canary Wharf if city execs wanted to live here they are not going to use it as a main residence so won't have to pay these fees. It can't be aimed at those guys.

Who do they think has this kind of money? Also, are they buying South Dock/Greenland Dock, which is the only local like for like comparison? Can we prevent this from happening?
FB

 

[Tir Na Nog]

Hi,

We're pretty much in the same predicament as yourselves so unfortunately I don't have a solution. We're in Ripon, North Yorkshire and I'm interested to hear the situation at other BWML marina's

We moved here, as a live aboard 'Grade1' 4 years ago. The price has increased from about £2,500 a year to £4,000 in that time. Our boat and the marina has stayed the same. I felt this was completely unjustified on their part for such a sudden hike. I went to Citizens Advice and they said boating is a 'grey area' and couldn't really offer me any advice. It then took almost 2 years of writing letters of complaint to BWML to get through their 'internal complaints procedure' to reach BW then the ombudsman. She told me that because we're on a yearly contract BWML can charge whatever they like.

I believe they're now in the process of obtaining planning permission for here so no doubt they're going to whack it up again. There seems to be no regulatory body for this company and they can just charge what ever they require.

I'm thinking of starting an on line petition and sending it to government. We need a regulator for BWML to over look their price setting. Where investment is spent etc. There are no rights for boaters and this 'grey area' needs to be sorted out so we have some legal backing. Do you think it will be effective?

We are not trying to get out of paying a mooring fee, council tax etc. But I do believe these prices are extortionate and unjustified and something must be put in place to regulate this company. People's lives are being affected.

Sarah.

 

[Tir Na Nog]

BWML are unregulated.

We're in the same predicament at Ripon Marina. I think there's 2 options I can think of.

Start an on line petition to lobby parliament to get a regulatory body to over see BWML's pricing. A voice for boaters to get some legal rights. As it stands we don't have any.

Refuse to pay the increase. Get every single customer of BWML up and down the country who feels the price increase's are unfair and unjustified to refuse to pay the extra. Would BWML take legal/court action against all it's customers? Maybe a fair hearing is what we need.

 

[argust]

Hi I have been at poplar for 5 years and this week things have come to a head. Not only do we have new pricing policy which charges small boats like they are 20metres as that's their berth rate limit, they are also introducing the wide beam surcharge of 30% and want us to pay 5% for transfer of mooring along with using boatshed exclusively for sale of boats and pay them another 5% with added VAT. They have also increase the price of parking by 50% and pumpout by 25%......
There seem to be no rules or limits for them to extort from their customers. To top it all they are planning to label people living here for more than a decade as new customers and have no continuity of contract!
I want to start a online petition and I need some help for this. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Little Sam]

BWML is a private company, therefor they can charge what they like. Its up to you as a private paying customer whether you choose to take on there services or not.

If you have a contract they are obliged to see that out, but upon renewal they can charge what they like and there is nothing you can do about it and its totally upto you whether you take that on or not. (Quoted from my niece who is a Barrister at law.)

Terrible though it is. I wish you guys luck, we have similar things here in Italy, the price of some marina's here would literlly make your hair fall out, then if you use your head there can be good deals had much cheaper than even the UK.

 

[sailorman]

Hi I have been at poplar for 5 years and this week things have come to a head. Not only do we have new pricing policy which charges small boats like they are 20metres as that's their berth rate limit, they are also introducing the wide beam surcharge of 30% and want us to pay 5% for transfer of mooring along with using boatshed exclusively for sale of boats and pay them another 5% with added VAT. They have also increase the price of parking by 50% and pumpout by 25%......
There seem to be no rules or limits for them to extort from their customers. To top it all they are planning to label people living here for more than a decade as new customers and have no continuity of contract!
I want to start a online petition and I need some help for this. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Not enforceable in law, do a forun search on the subject

 

[Downsman]

" Have lived at Poplar Dock Marina for 4+ years"

"Hi I have been at poplar for 5 years "

"Start an on line petition to lobby parliament to get a regulatory body to over see BWML's "

I'm a bit slow..are you talking about people on canal boats staying permanently in a marina, like living in a flat ashore only you're 'Boaters' , or do you ever go to sea or move the vessel?

Have you tried petitions on a canal Forum? Hopefully you'll get more names that way.

 

[lindsay]

One of the advantages of being a liveaboard is, presumably, the possibility of relative freedom or liberation from many administrative and burocratic problems and their adjudicators. Unlike a shore bound human, we should be able to up and away at any time and quite simply find another solution better suited to our own, certainly selfish, needs.


In my view, we waste our time, energy, intellect, intelligence, resourcefullness and opportunities for fun in taking such issues head on. It does not matter if they are justified or not, fair or not, reasonable or not .... or even legal or not. Do you really choose to spend your time fighting something that you can simply walk away from and spend your energies in getting what your really want for you and yours, elsewhere and DIRECTLY, without relying on others.

Lest this give rise to fulminating replies along the lines of "its the principle stupid", my views are the result of three quarters of a century of a very full and interesting life, too much of which was lost, however, due to not simply walking away from such issues because "it seemed right at the time"

Let's not squander one of the liveaboard's gifts!

 

[Taffy]

Wise advice indeed ! Walk away - or sail away in this case. Could be applied to many other things, not just a rip off marina.

 

[duncan99210]

The marina management have an end in view, which is to replace those of you who have been living there for years at what they regard as a below market rate with those who are prepared to pay the higher rates. You've got 2 options: shut up and pay up or move on.
The only thing you can tell them to swivel about is the insistance that you use Boatshed as brokers; this has been demonstrated to be an 'unfair' contract condition and cannot be enforced at law. Nor can they demand payment of any fees for a boat sold from the marina, unless they have been acting as a broker with your agrement. They might try to bill you for the money; don't pay and tell them to take it to the small claims court. They will loose.

 

[ean_p]

BWML was essentially formed to continue making profits without the size of them embarrassing BW. When they decided to transform 'berths' into 'residential' moorings it was obvious they only reason was to hike the 'rents' higher. If they are now registered residential plots then I would imagine that that status gives the occupant certain rights in law that come with residency! Would suggest you start looking for the positives in the way any other landlord / tenant relationship is structured. Maybe the local council housing officer who's burden you may become should you become homeless and of course the CAB. There are lots of laws and rules out there for tenants as many landlords on here will tell you! Stop being the victim if you can!...and the very best of luck as this kind of greed is / has trashed much of boating in the UK.

 

[duncan99210]

The rules applying to tenancies only apply to dwellings not residential moorings or mobile home plots. There are no real occupancy rights and having occupied a berth before they were granted residential status does not confer any right to remain at a previous rent. As I said earlier, there are 2 options: pay up or move on.

 

[Kapt K]

The rules applying to tenancies only apply to dwellings not residential moorings or mobile home plots. There are no real occupancy rights and having occupied a berth before they were granted residential status does not confer any right to remain at a previous rent. As I said earlier, there are 2 options: pay up or move on.

You are correct that most UK Law protects brick and mortar tenancies however some also applies to Mobile Homes / Caravans.
Unfortunately when the subject of protection for boat dwellers was last raised in 2006 by the office of deputy prime minister it was decided to rely on the mooring operators to be good sports and not take the urine... The RBOA also backed this decision fearing that regulation would stop operators offering Res Moorings.
IMHO the only operators it would put off we could probably do without anyway...

Of the 2 x options that have been given the "Pay Up" will be partly governed by your ability to do so... It is also a Kop Out for not trying to get some legal status put in place for the ever increasing number of people who have either chosen to live on a boat or are trying to use it as an affordable home.

The "Move On" option becomes difficult in areas of limited mooring space (such as London). Not necessarily due to work constraints as London has an excellent transport network (when it is working) although this could cause un-needed upheaval for children in school. There are other reasons why most of us can't simply move as well as reasons we are fighting for what we feel are our rights which I beg your indulgence to read. At this point I should declare that I also "Live" at Poplar and have done since 2007.

When I moved my boat there it was on the understanding that I was getting a Fully Residential Mooring and I have letters from BWML telling me I was being charged for using my boat as my sole residential address. I was also assured by BWML on many occasions that the "30% Extra Widebeam Charge" would never be implemented at Poplar Dock as it was constructed for widebeam vessels.

Until 2011 BWML continued this sham and as a result we all paid the extra money and (due to us having a great community) stayed there.
As we have found out, not only did they not have planning permission to sell Residential Moorings, the planning permission for the ENTIRE marina was never completed... This second part was whilst BW still ran it. The planning application was withdrawn but a slip-up at the Council meant that the Council thought it had gone through. The Council also regarded us as Residential and we have been using the Marina as a Voting address for Years... But I digress.

Funny thing planning law, if something has been in plain sight, but without planning permission, for more than 10 Years then it is automatically granted.
HRH opened the Marina in 1999 and BWML started "enquiring" about regularising live-aboards that they "had just noticed" in 2010. Coincidence? I think not...

The planning for the marina "as a whole" was rubber stamped under the 10 year rule and the application to convert 50 moorings to Residential moorings was greatly assisted by the fact that the visiting planning officer felt the marina already had a "Residential feel about it" (no **** Sherlock, we have been living there in plain sight for years) and BWML claiming "it would provide much needed affordable housing in the area". For those who don't know the marina has the privately run Canary Wharf Estate on one side and Tower Hamlets (poorest borough in London) on the other.

IF BWML had made the situation clear from the start, not residential, will charge you 30% extra if your boat is wider than 3Mtr, then people either would not have gone there in the first place or would have had their name down for an alternative mooring and this is a major part of our gripe.
Certainly in my case I would now have a mooring in South Dock. Just over the river, run by Southwark Council, Residential just under £388 pmpa.
As an "Existing Customer" my next bill from BWML will be £470 PLUS 10% phased Widebeam £517 pmpa. If someone (some fool) wanted to buy my boat as a Residential mooring it would cost them £12285 pa... Yes you did read that correctly, that is for "up to an 18mtr boat". My Mooring will only take a 14mtr boat (a lot of the marina less) but BWML would still charge £12285

We feel that we have been lied to and we also feel we have been used... Many people here have been here for over 10 years. We chose to live in a Marina for many different reasons. For myself I am out of the country for 5 months + and don't have the ability to move my boat around but I have already paid a premium for that. I'm not going for the sympathy vote but we also have boaters who can't shove lock gates around any more but thankfully they can still use a pen as a weapon and some of them are lethal. We have taken our case to the Ombudsman and realised how limited his powers are. He has even stated that he can not give a definitive ruling on many aspects of our case as BWML's Terms and Conditions are "Frankly Meaningless" and we must either get a Judge to rule on it or get the OFT motivated to look at it.

BWML employ one of the most expensive legal firms in the UK (Shoosmiths.. Check it out). In a recent case they charged FULL Barrister hourly rates PLUS travel for a 2.5 hr car journey to go to a case in London... It is therefore potentially liquidating to go up against them unless you can absolutely win and for a company who saw a steady decline in mooring uptake until 2012 (I cant find the figures for this year yet) they seem to have a wealth of cash to spend on defending themselves.
Where do they get it from??? Oh yes... Us.

We are taking this to the OFT and would ask for other groups and individuals to back us. I personally face over a 20% rise in my mooring fee next year and the prospect of alignment to over £12285 in 3 years. That's going from the £4500ish I currently pay (and no I'm not rich and yes I will fight for my and others right to keep their home).

One final point... My boat is 40ft x 10.5ft and weighs 10 Ton but the Airdraft is to high to go down the canals. My Neighbours boat is 77' x 20.5' and weighs over 100 ton but BWML class both as Inland craft... Go Figure, or in BWML's case make "Loads of Dosh"

K

 

[Bobobolinsky]

Move out, why should they worry, they have a 3 year waiting list.

Medway, Lee, Thames further west even the Ouse system where I live. You could have a season rail ticket from Huntingdon and still have £4-5K spare per annum, or drive to Cockfosters and go in from there

As for being sandwiched with Tower Hamlets. Where I am I can see the stars and hear the birds