Ships papers

pmagowan

pmagowan

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 Sep 2009
Messages
11,836
Location
Northern Ireland
sites.google.com
Hi all, I have bought (last year) a Sweden 41 which was built in the late 80's. I have a few questions:

Ownership documents: I have the bill of sale to me from a reputable broker and all previous bills of sale minus one. I presume this is sufficient.

Ships radio licence: I am a little confused about this. Do I need a new licence. I have transferred my old radio across to the new boat so I know the programmed MMSI will be wrong and so I might need to send it to the dealer for reprogramming

SSR: I live in Norn Iron so am likely to venture into another country at some point or other. I know they won't check in the ROI but I have applied for a change of ownership new SSR

Tax status: I have one of the letters from the tax man about this but it says it is not a certificate of tax paid status

So hopefully my ships papers will be copies of;
  • Ownership trail
  • tax status letter
  • insurance cert
  • ships radio license?
  • SSR
  • RCD exempt status
  • ships log

Does this seem right?
 
Yes, you have more than many. you can get a check list from the RYA site. You do need a licence in your name for the radio but retaining the MMSI (if it has one) You can change the registration on the Ofcom site. You can register on the SSR, but if you want to use the Part 1 you will need title documents going back 5 years.

The VAT letter is good to have but is rather meaningless as it says. This is not, however an issue. Nobody (currently) will bother you either here or abroad about VAT. Likewise the RCD. it is exempt because it was built in the EEA, but not sure why it has a certificate unless it was imported into the EU at some time after 1998. It would be interesting to know exactly what the letter from HMRC actually says and why it was issued.
 
The tax letter says:

'with reference to previous correspondence I am able to confirm from the documentary evidence provided that your vessel is considered to be tax paid in the UK'

It then goes on to say ' this letter does not confer unconditional tax-free importation into the EC for your vessel, and as it was berthed outside the EC at midnight 31 December 1992 it will be in the same position as any other goods subsequently imported into the EC. Vat will be chargable unless the importer is entitled to an import vat relief'

'The relief most likely to apply is returned goods relief and for this relief tax-paid status is one of a number of conditions that must be met under EC law and this letter can be usedto help verify that condition. EC law also specifies that the exporter and importer must be the same person. Therefore if the yacht changes hands outside the EC the new owner would not be entitled to RGR...'

'You are advised to keep this letter with your ships papers as evidence of its tax paid status'
 
Last edited:
pmagowan said:
Ships radio licence: I am a little confused about this. Do I need a new licence. I have transferred my old radio across to the new boat so I know the programmed MMSI will be wrong and so I might need to send it to the dealer for reprogramming
Click to expand...

The vessel needs a Ship Station License in your name. You can get this instantly (you download a PDF to print out) and for free from the Ofcom website.

Very strictly speaking I think the MMSI is supposed to stay with the vessel, but by far the easiest thing practically will be for you to use the existing MMSI on your new license. There's a box on the online form for this; if you leave it blank then the system generates a new one, so make sure you find it and fill it in. The new owner of your old boat won't be wanting to use the existing MMSI it since he doesn't have a radio programmed with it, and I can't see any other problem that might arise in practice from doing this.

Pete
 
pmagowan said:
The tax letter says:

'with reference to previous correspondence I am able to confirm from the documentary evidence provided that your vessel is considered to be tax paid in the UK'

It then goes on to say ' this letter does not confer unconditional tax-free importation into the EC for your vessel, and as it was berthed outside the EC at midnight 31 December 1992 it will be in the same position as any other goods subsequently imported into the EC. Vat will be chargable unless the importer is entitled to an import vat relief'

'The relief most likely to apply is returned goods relief and for this relief tax-paid status is one of a number of conditions that must be met under EC law and this letter can be usedto help verify that condition. EC law also specifies that the exporter and importer must be the same person. Therefore if the yacht changes hands outside the EC the new owner would not be entitled to RGR...'

'You are advised to keep this letter with your ships papers as evidence of its tax paid status'
Click to expand...

As I suspected. The boat was doing walkabouts on the crucial day and returned afterwards but qualified for returned goods relief (see VAT Notice No8). If the boat was built after 1986 they probably would have seen evidence that VAT was paid originally as well. That is probably how the RCD exemption certificate came about as well.

All sound, but in reality nothing to worry about. Just make sure it stays with the papers to reassure a future buyer.
 
prv said:
The vessel needs a Ship Station License in your name. You can get this instantly (you download a PDF to print out) and for free from the Ofcom website.

Very strictly speaking I think the MMSI is supposed to stay with the vessel, but by far the easiest thing practically will be for you to use the existing MMSI on your new license. There's a box on the online form for this; if you leave it blank then the system generates a new one, so make sure you find it and fill it in. The new owner of your old boat won't be wanting to use the existing MMSI it since he doesn't have a radio programmed with it, and I can't see any other problem that might arise in practice from doing this.

Pete
Click to expand...

The old boat is in my shed and will remain so until I have fixed her up or she has disintegrated. I don't think anyone wants a 28' wooden boat with rotten deck :)
Thanks
 
I am making a manual for the boat and this is part of the work for this. I want a document that has the instructions for everything, safety stuff, electronics, engine, electrics etc. I have scanned all the documents ont the computer and am pasting them into this manual. I will then make a supplimentary folder with copies of important documents that may need to be handed out to officials.

The old file was bulky, out of date and disorganised as one would expect after some years.
 
pmagowan said:
Hi all, I have bought (last year) a Sweden 41 which was built in the late 80's. I have a few questions:

Ownership documents: I have the bill of sale to me from a reputable broker and all previous bills of sale minus one. I presume this is sufficient.

Ships radio licence: I am a little confused about this. Do I need a new licence. I have transferred my old radio across to the new boat so I know the programmed MMSI will be wrong and so I might need to send it to the dealer for reprogramming

SSR: I live in Norn Iron so am likely to venture into another country at some point or other. I know they won't check in the ROI but I have applied for a change of ownership new SSR

Tax status: I have one of the letters from the tax man about this but it says it is not a certificate of tax paid status

So hopefully my ships papers will be copies of;
  • Ownership trail
  • tax status letter
  • insurance cert
  • ships radio license?
  • SSR
  • RCD exempt status
  • ships log

Does this seem right?
Click to expand...

No.

You don't seem to have included the most basic document of the lot - the Certificate of Registry. Original, not a copy.

Assuming that you register on Part One, the entry in the Register is itself evidence of title, so you don't need to bother with the ownership chain before that point, unless there is a tax issue. If you register on the mickey mouse register, then you still need to prove ownership.
 
pmagowan said:
what is the point of being on part 1 and spending the extra money? I don't need to use the boat as collateral on anything.
Click to expand...

But presumably you want to be able to say that the boat belongs to you? A Bill of Sale is just a receipt, and an SSR registration is not evidence of title, so the only way that you will be able to show that the boat belongs to you is to haul out the entire set of Bills of Sale. This may not matter in NW Europe at the moment, but Brexit could change all that, and it certainly matters outside Europe.
 
But since I have the record of bills of sale and am including them in this document then surely there is no point in paying money for a registration. It seems to me that all the register proves is that you had these documents and sent them to someone else who stamped a form and sent it back at great expense. Just wondering why I should pay the estra. I thought I needed the basic SSR for the purposes of proving nationality of the boat if I was questioned (which I wont be) in Ireland.
 
They are copies. The originals are in a safe adnd they are stored digitally on my computer, phone and a number of cloud servers. They are probably less likely to dissappear than the register (going by the history of government IT). :)
 
pmagowan said:
what is the point of being on part 1 and spending the extra money? I don't need to use the boat as collateral on anything.
Click to expand...

When I bought my brand new boat I registered it on the SSR as I could see no advantage, only additional cost, to putting it on Part 1.

If sailing foreign waters Part 3 should be sufficient for the Authorities but, like all bureaucrats, what should and does happen is often significantly different. As I see it, the biggest issue is that most Arrival Documents have a box for “port of registry”. Part 3 doesn’t have this. Also, the worlds bureaucrats like to see the port of registry on the transom and bow. SSR does not require this.

If you’re planning a foreign cruise (I’m not including your laid-back neighbour to the west), you’d be wise to add “of Rathlin” or similar after the boats name. I think I’d use “of Cardiff” on mine if I ever take her foreign for the simple reason that Cardiff is mentioned on the back of the SSR certificate.

My worse nightmare would be trying to explain the validity of SSR to Croatian Authorities, widely known to seeking any reason to impose outrageous fines (don’t ask me how I know!).
 
davidjackson said:
When I bought my brand new boat I registered it on the SSR as I could see no advantage, only additional cost, to putting it on Part 1.

If sailing foreign waters Part 3 should be sufficient for the Authorities but, like all bureaucrats, what should and does happen is often significantly different. As I see it, the biggest issue is that most Arrival Documents have a box for “port of registry”. Part 3 doesn’t have this. Also, the worlds bureaucrats like to see the port of registry on the transom and bow. SSR does not require this.

If you’re planning a foreign cruise (I’m not including your laid-back neighbour to the west), you’d be wise to add “of Rathlin” or similar after the boats name. I think I’d use “of Cardiff” on mine if I ever take her foreign for the simple reason that Cardiff is mentioned on the back of the SSR certificate.

My worse nightmare would be trying to explain the validity of SSR to Croatian Authorities, widely known to seeking any reason to impose outrageous fines (don’t ask me how I know!).
Click to expand...

I suggest NOT using Rathlin. Choose one of the valid ports of registry (even if not on Part 1) https://assets.publishing.service.g...le/302163/ports_of_registry_for_parts_i-3.pdf in case some foreign official starts getting uppity. Rathlin would be an own goal IMHO.
 
john_morris_uk said:
I suggest NOT using Rathlin. Choose one of the valid ports of registry (even if not on Part 1) https://assets.publishing.service.g...le/302163/ports_of_registry_for_parts_i-3.pdf in case some foreign official starts getting uppity. Rathlin would be an own goal IMHO.
Click to expand...

I used Rathlin as a tongue in cheek example as I’ve had recent postings with the OP about this wonderful Island.

Many people use London as the average jobsworth has heard of it.

Notwithstanding, thanks for pointing out the error of my ways ?
 
Last edited:
To create a printout - opencpn logbook works well for me, though you might want to tweak the default templates . One of these years might even get round to adding a few more languages.. Boxes for most things you could want plus some user fields. Easy to print out boat details, or with equipment list/serial numbers and simple to create crew lists if needed for checking in.
https://opencpn.org/wiki/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=opencpn:opencpn_user_manual:plugins:logs:logbook
https://opencpn.org/wiki/dokuwiki/l...pn:manual:plugins:logbook:logbook1.2-help.pdf
 
davidjackson said:
I used Rathlin as a tongue in cheek example as I’ve had recent postings with the OP about this wonderful Island.

Many people use London as the average jobsworth has heard of it.

Notwithstanding, thanks for pointing out the error of my ways ��
Click to expand...

I wasn’t meaning to come across as officious...the trouble with forums is you don’t see the twinkle in someone’s eye as they make their tongue in cheek suggestions.

I agree with London. Everyone’s heard of it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top