Share a sunsail yacht partnership scheme

[twentythirty]

I recognise that this option might be a bit infra dig to many but I wonder if anyone has experience of this system. Basically you pay 63% for a boat that you have provided to Sunsail for its first 5 yrs of its life. What you get out of it is up to 12 weeks/yr use of any similar boat anywhere in the world without any other costs other than getting there.
As most of my sailing has been done with Sunsail I am aware of their set up for customers and it is actually very good.
At the moment 12 weeks/yr is more than I can use and 52 weeks/yr is still more than I will want to use once early retired in about 5 years time particularly as I have a non sailing wife. So these benefits are not fully of use to me. It seems to me that if there are other male or females out there considering this scheme it would at least be useful to discuss it amongst ourselves. A meeting at the Boat Show might be a good idea and who knows a small syndicate of 2, 3 or 4 might develop? I am minded toward the Sunsail384 catamaran.
Rgds
Julian

 

[Bosun Higgs]

What is the cost of the boat ie the 63%? And where?

 

[binch]

sunsail

You need caution.
What happens to Sunsail boats in the winter when there are no punters about?
How do they select and engage the people who look after the boats, not just the leaders of the flotillas?
I do not think Sunsail is better or worse than most of the others (except the outfit run by Barrie the New Zealander, whose operation is outstanding because of his personal involvement.)
But the sailing plan (as opposed to the business plan: the two are quite different) is not, in my opinion, very good.
At the yard in Nidri, where we hauled out, we lay close to several Sunsail boats which had been badly damaged in a storm and which were being repaired by their employees, some of whom had been involved in the failure to look after the boats when there had been a storm warning. (All privately owned boats in the vicinity had been got clear.)
PBO published a photo we had taken of the aftermath of a Vlikho winter storm which had Sunsail's laid up boats scattered like spillikins. The reason was that they had been propped on oil-drums, and anyone knows that this is not good practice. (The ridges round the drums are there to allow for expansion. When the wind varies, the drum expands and contracts and the wedges come adrift and . . . . . .)
Most charter organisations are run by businessmen who are good at the return on capital employed but are less good on detailed boat practice. Your boat would be part of the detail.
We have met those who have been satisfied with the deal. We have met those who have not. Do be very, very cautious.

 

[twentythirty]

The 63% option on the new 384 cat costs £139K. Boat will be in Croatia, Greece or Thailand. In the 5 years awaiting total ownership you get use of similar at any Sunsail site. Choice of initial registration is an important one. Personally I am inclined to do the far flung places now(Thailand, Vietnam, Seychelles) on other boats. Once the boat was available full time it would be handy to have it a bit nearer to enable friends and family to easyJet to it. That being said I would be very interested to take her to bvi and leave her there. Depends on what others think. This would also probably have to be written down and signed on. Hope to find 1, 2 or 3 people with similar thoughts.
There are several other boat types available. At other end of price range is
36i at £63K (list 100K) with 5 yr use of 39' boats. Suspect some points are subject to negotiation with SS.
The Moorings (now same group) do a similar scheme but a bit more expensive.
Only costs for the/any boat during the 5 years is a turnround fee for cleaning and providing sheets and towels plus fuel and any local cruising fees (I think). Turnround is much cheaper with SS at around £120 (from memory) for the whole boat.
If anyone wants to email me direct to get a mobile number, do so at
aphroditehills@hotmail.com.
Just in case the last part of the email address is corrupted as can be the case I believe on public forums, a non cryptic(!) crossword clue might be "very warm letter". It's the usual one!
Regards
Julian

 

[twentythirty]

Binch

Thank you for your note of caution.
I think we all know of the infamous picture showing a whole Sunsail fleet parked on top of each other. Not sure how their owners fared. Will be one of the big Q's at the boatshow.
Sunsail must have suffered bigtime themselves after this event and I imagine, but will want to determine, that they have also learnt bigtime that that is not how you run a succesful business plan.
Regards
Julian

 

[mikehibb]

It sounds to me that you might be better off just chartering with the likes of Sunsail or whoever has the best deal at the time for the area you want over the next five years.
Then buy an ex charter Sunsail (or whowever) boat.

We have an ex Sunsail boat, it was in blummin good condition.
Bought it in 2007 (end of season) after 6 seasons use.
TakTik and Chartplotter fitted in 2006 ( we only had to buy a C-map card) new sails in 2005 (sunsail change all sails after 5 seasons, well they did when we bought)

Only thing we will do this year is re-upholster from corporate colours, back to original spec. Upholstery is still serviceable, but we planned on doing it any way.

Sorry nearly forgot, we fitted a new loo, first thing we did.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

Another note of caution - 63% of what, exactly?

The manufacturer's list price or what Sunsail actually pay for the boat ??

If list price, and Sunsail get a significant discount of say 25%, they end up only paying 12% themselves and get the best 5 years use out of the boat. You get stuffed for all the rest. Make sure your share is of the actual price of the boat.

 

[Tranona]

I bought my boat through a similar deal with Kiriacoulis in Greece. I paid 48%, although his latest scheme is nearer 55%.

It is only worth doing if you make good use of you "free" entitlements and consider the opportunity cost of paying full price for your charters. I paid roughly £40k for my boat and borrowed the money. At 6% average my interest costs were £2400 pa. Typical charter rates for my boat were £1600 pa so once I used two weeks it was cheaper than chartering.

The big unknown, however is what you do at the end of the contract. When I started, there was a shortage of good boats on the secondhand market so ex charter boats were selling for more than the 48% of new price. When I finished the market had collapsed and I would have to sell at a price probably 10-20% lees than I paid for the boat. There is also a little sting where you have to pay VAT at the end if you want to keep the boat in the EU - although this is reflected in the resale value.

To me it only makes sense if you intend like me to keep the boat at the end, for your retirement for example. Clearly getting a syndicate together on this basis is almost impossible - you will have to sell the boat at the end and there is a high risk you will lose money. Holding together a syndicate of 4-5 people when you do not have control over the boat is also a challenge.

The alternative is to join a syndicate that owns a boat outright. If properly organised these can work well and over time be economical, provided you are happy to use the same boat in the same location each year.

You might find it useful to talk to Chris Hawes www.yachtfractions.co.uk as he is well up to speed on the alternatives. No connection other than I bought my boat through him.

Hope this helps

 

[twentythirty]

Nice to know it worked out well for you Mike.
Your idea is as I have been doing for some years but a few financial things have got me more focussed on actually owning a boat.
1. Returns on money deposits are down to about 3% at best.
2. Looking at Sunsail charter costs for cats just now I found prices varying from 2.8 to 5.7K low and high season in bvi and from 3.3 to 6.7K in Croatia. All for one week, no flights. An agent like www.latesail.com will come up with discounts of around 15% on whatever Companies they have deals with roubd the world. Say a lowish average price is 4K/week. SS offer 12 weeks use low season wherever that is in that part of the world through to 6 weeks if all high season via a points system. So say the return is worth 9 weeks average, this works out at approx 36K/yr. As an individual owner you have paid 139K and this basically the value of the boat you'll get in 5 yrs so the capital cost is kind of sorted. You have 36K worth/yr for 139K outlay. This is getting on for a 25% return! But only if you use it of course! I am a bit hard pressed to use 9 weeks sailing a year as am in work full time. That's why I think a small, maybe one other person, syndicate would be of benefit for two people. The advantage of a slightly bigger syndicate (as well as lower outlay) would be 2 or 3 other people to sail with, perhaps at least 1 would often be available. This a big incentive for me with a non sailing wife.
3. Within the 5yr timescale it may well be that inflation comes back to haunt us thanks to lack of restraint within Goverment. It cannot be used as a decision making factor as noone knows (least of all HMG!) what is developing out there in the financial futures. But that which suffers most in inflationary times is cash on deposit and it will benefit HMG to pay back their incredible borrowing with cheap inflated money in years to come. Assets will generally rise (in figures) thereby holding real value paid.

Thank you also to MoodyNick and Tranona for making the effort to comment.
To the former, with respect, it doesn't make any difference.
Of course SS are not going to pay the RRP for a boat if they buy hundreds at a time. They'd have gone out of business years ago if that was their level of financial acumen. And I am sure they make a reasonable profit on this scheme - otherwise why do it? Like most people I ignore RRPs or "normal prices" whether thinking of buying cars, boats or bottles of wine and just judge whether the price I can get the item for is good value in comparison to elsewhere or whether I really want it that much anyway. But looking at 5yr old cats (usually the older type Lagoons) for sale on the internet I don't see anything below the equivalent of £139K and this is for a new award winning design (whatever that's worth!). So this idea has held my interest.

To the latter, yes 2 weeks use and you may have covered your costs. Your figures agree with mine. If 2 weeks more than covered your 6%, 9 weeks would be about 25% as I say above.
Joining an existing syndicate is also an option I am considering.
I also have focussed in on subsequent immediate cost. It is good to hear from Mike that his boat was so well represented to him. The SS contract is for full maintenance and a recommission ahead of delivery. The VAT issue is correctly highlighted and I had brought that up with them. I can't remeber the exact figures but Greece was worst (and as it going the way of Iceland it is not going to be better in 5yrs time) at about 20%, Croatia 10%ish, Thailand 7% tax, all on value of boat at time. Mind you, move it to bvis and you avoid this.
The 5 yr timescale suits me as in 5 years I wll be 60 and will either stop work or go part time. Even if I have all my time free from toil then I feel I will not want to spend all my time on a cat in the sunny bvis with a gin in one hand and suntanned female in the other. Who would? Actually it is the non sailing wife and grown up children all in the UK who are the factors here! It would be preferable for any other person in the syndicate to want to keep the boat after 5yrs. Things change though. At least with just 2 in, one could buy out the other if that is what they wanted. Or if unable to agree terms SS do a guarantee buy back. I think the figure was that you lost about 20% (buy back 40%ish?, so that is prob 20% RRP cost). They do this to try and encourage people to continue their scheme, like car leasing, and quite a few people I have met on holidays do this. But as I see things from now, I am intested in using the boat more frequently in 5yrs time and so would want to keep her subject to usual caveats.

Please keep your valued comments coming. I know I am speaking to people with more experience than I have here. It is not the usual website rubbish! Hope to hear from anyone via the aphroditehills@hotmail email in case they want my mobile number and maybe arrange a light hearted chat and drink at the boatshow. Not sure which day I am visiting it yet.

Regards
Julian

 

[Jeannius]

Julian... Has your non-sailing wife been on a cat in somewhere like the BVIs? A lot of non-sailing wives can be converted if you get them to the the right place and on the right boat.

My wife would never sail with me in the UK... would tolerate a monohull in the med... it took a cat in the BVI to get her really enjoying the experience. So much so that on the 6th January she'll start a round the world trip with me!

 

[Foxy]

Hmmm, well I worked for them for a while....

Main issue for me would be the vulnerability of some of the expensive bits.... well at the end of the day, the engine. They get really trashed on charter and..... well....

If it were me, depending on what you wanted to do with the boat, I would be tempted to hunt around for a good deal Bavaria in the UK - maybe about 40k. I'm not the greatest fan for long term cruising, but for pretty much everything else, they cant be beaten. Personally I find them better in most ways than the Jans and Bens etc.

Either way, you would have a boat whenever you wanted and could sail at weekends and the odd holiday - which would save you feeling obliged to spend a few weeks holiday sailing a year to make the deal work. Also, wife might take to it a bit more if you could go out in guaranteed weather and if she could also input into how the boat looked inside. She may be happy just hanging out in the marina on a windy weekend in winter - not sailing I know, but kinda fun too.

 

[Tranona]

Couple of further observations.

A partnership is more likely to work than a larger syndicate but you need somebody who wants to use their share of the "weeks".

The buy-back is always going to be lower value because the operator then has to sell the boat. Also, I am not sure about the private resale on the large cats as the number of these coming on the fleets has been increasing - and they all have to find "homes" when they are retired. I would be less concerned by condition. My boat was kept in excellent order and handed over exactly according to the contract, although the actual experience of getting all the niggling bits done was a bit of hassle.

VAT is only an issue if you want to keep the boat in the EU. Check what value it will be based on. I paid 19% on the original contract price in Greece, but only when it was finally transferred to me. Payable in Euros so I took a bit of a hit as I originally paid for the boat in DM.

Jeannius point about wives and sailing may be valid. I can't remember the last time my wife sailed on my boat in the UK but she loves (well, enthusiastically tolerates!) the boat in Corfu. If she did not we would not keep it.

Good luck with your search.

 

[MoodySabre]

A friend of mine did a Sunsail deal about 7 years ago. After 5 years he got the boat back and said it was in fantastic condition. He then sold 3 quarter shares and reckons he got his quarter for nothing. Lots of sailing at Sunsail bases in the meantime.

 

[jimi]

As others have said if you treat it as advance payment for holidays and not as a boat purchase, it can make sense

 

[tennisgirl1]

We looked into Sunsail's scheme when we bought our boat (2007). There was a sliding scale - you could have 12 weeks' sailing in low season or four weeks in high season. We were about to retire and decided it was not for us.

We were concerned also about the value of the boat at the end of the period given the vast number of yachts coming onto the market as a result of these schemes.

However, we have met people since who were very pleased with the scheme as it enables you to have charter weeks at very low cost all over the world. One couple said that having bought one boat, they intended to sell it and take up the scheme again, mainly in order to sail in many parts of the world.

 

[mcframe]

Julian... Has your non-sailing wife been on a cat in somewhere like the BVIs?

My sailing-before-children-wife hasn't been on a cat in the BVIs, but we did do some charters in the Med...

lot of non-sailing wives can be converted if you get them to the the right place and on the right boat.

... before we had children and bought a 27' bilge-keeler in the Solent ;-)

[Checking the numbers the other day, I'm not sure whether I should be proud or ashamed of the fact that it's taken us almost 5 years to spend the purchase price on upkeep & other boatstuff- yes, I did point out the amount we'd spent on charter in previous years, so it works both ways]

My wife would never sail with me in the UK

Mine does - now - the alternative would be flying with the kids ;-/

10 quidsworth of diesel and 70 mins to the boat beat EasyJet et al for us - perhaps we might save up for the odd foreign charter in future...

Anyway: If I wanted to lend a CharterCo working capital, I'd buy their corporate bonds; I haven't - if I was rich enough to consider buying a boat-so-big-I'd-want-it-to-work-for-me, I'd do so, but I'm not, so I haven't.

(I'm not knocking the idea of picking up ex-charter boats - that they *have* to sell - after 3/5 years - for the right boat, the buyer could do well)

 

[Master_and_Commander]

You need caution.
What happens to Sunsail boats in the winter when there are no punters about?
How do they select and engage the people who look after the boats, not just the leaders of the flotillas?
I do not think Sunsail is better or worse than most of the others (except the outfit run by Barrie the New Zealander, whose operation is outstanding because of his personal involvement.)
But the sailing plan (as opposed to the business plan: the two are quite different) is not, in my opinion, very good.
At the yard in Nidri, where we hauled out, we lay close to several Sunsail boats which had been badly damaged in a storm and which were being repaired by their employees, some of whom had been involved in the failure to look after the boats when there had been a storm warning. (All privately owned boats in the vicinity had been got clear.)
PBO published a photo we had taken of the aftermath of a Vlikho winter storm which had Sunsail's laid up boats scattered like spillikins. The reason was that they had been propped on oil-drums, and anyone knows that this is not good practice. (The ridges round the drums are there to allow for expansion. When the wind varies, the drum expands and contracts and the wedges come adrift and . . . . . .)
Most charter organisations are run by businessmen who are good at the return on capital employed but are less good on detailed boat practice. Your boat would be part of the detail.
We have met those who have been satisfied with the deal. We have met those who have not. Do be very, very cautious.

Good post, well said.
I can assure you that, in my experience at least, Sunsail do not ask for any qualifications or sailing experience prior to booking a holiday for their clients.
I am experienced, but have sailed with many who are not, and on each occasion when I had booked holidays with them I was never asked for my experience level etc.

Sunsail yachts take a battering during the season, on average 1 charter year is equal to 3 years use of a private yacht.

That said, I have met many people who are involved with the scheme who have been very happy with all aspects of it.

Just exercise caution and be aware that these boats do get a hammering, particularly the engine and gearbox.

 

[SeamanStaines]

I have some experience of this. My current yacht is a 42' Catamaran which I purchased new through 'Moorings' (who where subsequently taken over by Sunsail). She was operated through Moorings for six seasons for which they paid me a fixed monthly amount as well as the weeks I could use the boat. In essence it was a similar contract to the one Sunsail now offer.

I would make the following comments from my experiences:-

The actual base that the yacht is operated through is crucial to the way she will be used and maintained. My boat was based in Mallorca which was very popular and so she achieved nearly 100% of utilisation (I never managed to get any 'walk on time' in six years!). As a result of that utilisation the maintenance of the boat was often late. In addition, the motivation of the staff and management at the base directly affects the way your boat will be looked after. Having visited a few bases I would strongly suggest that you are familiar with the actual location and the quality of the Sunsail 'team' before basing your boat there.

After six years the yacht was still in very good condition (although a lot if that is a credit to the original design and construction) with no major issues or problems. The difficulty I had was in getting maintenance done during the operational phase and particularly at the end of the contract. With the benefit of hindsight I would have done the following.

1. Insisted on a maintenance log and repair schedule being kept of all work, repairs, replacements and servicing and (this is crucial) inspecting it on a regular basis.

3. Prepare a full inventory of everything that is on the boat including serial numbers and get this approved by the base manager

2. Make sure I visited and used my individual boat at least twice a year and to have time available to discuss the maintenance with the base manager. Also getting agreement of remedial work and ensuring that it is carried out by your next visit.

3. Have the boat surveyed both half way through the contract and three months prior to phase out. At the survey prior to phase out get a full inventory and compare it with the original one to see what is now missing. Get serial numbers for all of the equipment and, where possible, mark it to prevent later disputes over the equipment. This is because all of the charter companies tend to swap pieces amongst the fleet, and particularly when they are phasing out a few identical yachts.

4. Have a full survey done at the actual phase out and also check through yourself all of the systems on the yacht and make comprehensive snag lists. I did this but even so I was still finding stupid 'bodged' repairs years after the yacht had been phased out.

Having said all of this I am very happy both with the yacht as she is now and the service I received from Sunsail. My engines are both on 3500 hours and are in excellent condition, as are the gearboxes. I think this (as with a lot of the regular maintenance) is that is done well and on time. The things to watch for where there is a breakdown during a charter and a repair is made temporarily that is never permanently fixed. The maintenance logs would show this and I wish I had insisted on them.

 

[Rivers & creeks]

Good post, well said.
I can assure you that, in my experience at least, Sunsail do not ask for any qualifications or sailing experience prior to booking a holiday for their clients.
I am experienced, but have sailed with many who are not, and on each occasion when I had booked holidays with them I was never asked for my experience level etc.

Perculiar logic at work here - I've bought about 8 boats in my time and have never asked for the sailing qualifications of any of the present or previous owners. And from repairs and mods I've done I can testify to many a previous owners bodge! Some quite awful e.g. gas pipe lines. And I've done a few 'temporary' repairs in my time that have never needed to be made 'permanent'. One thing I find about the points against the scheme is that they almost all come from those who have chartered themselves and run along the lines of "we were very careful but I bet lots of others weren't". It's one of those anchor/ensign/bavaria topics that seems to bring out the strident in otherwise sensible people.
The strangest thing of all is that there is never a string of replies from peed off and disgruntled former participants in the scheme. The lack of this queue of unhappy actual users speaks volumes!

 

[Tranona]

I agree about making sure you keep on top of the boat. We used ours twice a year so knew what had been done. Not only is the base set up important but the actual location can have a big impact on the type of use the boat gets. We had ours in Corfu where there is little chance of high wind, harbours are usually easy for mooring, although inevitably there is a bit of banging around. However ours was only damaged once and you can't see the repair to the topsides although the dings in the toerail are still there. Repair facilities are excellent and there is less of a need perhaps to "bodge" running repairs.

Our contract had a mid term refit when the boat went to Athens and among other things had a new suit of sails. I delivered her back to Corfu with a professional skipper from another charter operator for a "second opinion" before we decided to keep her rather than sell. We actually left her in the fleet for an additional year and made some money out of the charters. We had a detailed statement of every bit of work that was done in that year. Had a week in September and drew up a list then spent 10 days at the end of October sitting on the boat making sure everything was done. This is the least satisfactory part of the experience as you are right at the bottom of the priority list! I did not have a survey because I think I have enough knowledge of boats and systems to trust my own judgement. Also the boat is by the standards of some charter boats fairly simple.

I would not worry about inexperienced people using the boat. The boats are pretty rugged, fully insured and as many have pointed out mostly well maintained. They have to be as a non-functioning boat does not earn money!

There must be people who are unhappy with their experiences of these contracts as they are not for everyone and sometimes circumstances change. Perhaps the unhappy people don't use the forum!