Self-tacking Jib...thoughts?

[AMCD300]

I quite like the new Hanse 345, but I notice that it has a self-tacking Jib - something I have not had experience of before.

http://www.hanseyachts.co.uk/showdetails.asp?boatid=23

Reading the YM review it looks like a great thing to have, especially for the short-handed sailor.

It allows more to be done from the cockpit for one thing, although I acknowledge some will complain that it is one more thing to go wrong when you least expect it.

What do the good and the wise think about the STJ?

Happy to hear from everyone else as well....

Andy

 

[prv]

Handy upwind, although it does limit the size of jib you can have (can't come aft of the mast). Can be difficult to get a decent shape off the wind. Can't heave to without going and lashing the traveller

When we were looking for the new boat, of two otherwise-similar ones, one had a self-tacker. I wanted to pick that one, then also get a big light genoa for reaching in light winds. (In fact we ended up with a different boat altogether.)

Pete

 

[Rossynant]

Most depend on how it's organized. Handy indeed, but I don't particularly like the 'racing kind' as probably on Hanse. This is for closehauled and nothing else.

Worthy to remember the whole idea of jib (and the name probably) was about self-tacking. This was with us for centuries and somehow got forgotten. Old working rigs had such as a rule - and no winches

Best configuration is boomed jib, since this works on any point of sailing, great sail downwind. But modern yacht rigs are made for upwind only and jib is not working downwind - the kind with just sheet on traveller mostly is made this way. Such as was used on Soling class. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_qbg9Zd11Zho/TEk0p3i-PJI/AAAAAAAAFhA/2Wtl3rs_WNw/s1600/soling1.jpg

For cruising boat self-tacking jib is used with bigger light wind genoa on roller installed in front of it, best arrangement I knew was on Reinke boats http://www.reinke-yacht.de/bootstypen/13m.htm

But really best working, IMHO, is wishbone boom, the same idea as used on windsurfer. Sail always kept in best shape, taut, no twist, no flapping in stays, works perfectly downwind. Also traditional idea, now almost forgotten. This naturally has to be hanked-on, not on roller. http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/attachments/sailboats/74332d1347635959-aftmast-rigs-diablesse.jpg

 

[dunedin]

I quite like the new Hanse 345, but I notice that it has a self-tacking Jib - something I have not had experience of before.

http://www.hanseyachts.co.uk/showdetails.asp?boatid=23

Reading the YM review it looks like a great thing to have, especially for the short-handed sailor.

It allows more to be done from the cockpit for one thing, although I acknowledge some will complain that it is one more thing to go wrong when you least expect it.

What do the good and the wise think about the STJ?

Happy to hear from everyone else as well....

Andy

After some long thought I think these self tacking jibs actually create more work in the real world

Sure they make short tacking slightly easier - but with a bit of technique it is easy to tack a full 140% genoa without winching more than the last inches, even single handed.

The trouble with a small jib is it is very slow downwind - for which folks then suggest hoisting an assymetric. But that is a huge amount more effort than simply easing the sails downwind.

And above F4 our favourite mode of fast and trouble free sailing is under genoa only if wind abeam or behind - no main to worry about gybing etc. But this would not be possible with a small jib

So I am in favour of a larger masthead genoa

 

[Tranona]

The pros and cons are well established. It seems for some buyers ease of handling with a small crew is a priority so some builders try to differentiate their product by offering a self tacking jib. The main advantages are ease of handling and the ability to carry full jib at higher wind speeds. The downside is poorer performance in light airs and off the wind. Furling genoas have better all round performance in most conditions but tend to suffer from poor shape when partially furled - which may be needed earlier than in a self tacker.

There are solutions to the shortcomings of each - light weather reaching sails for self tackers and padded luffs to improve shape on genoas as examples. A few years ago YM ran a side by side test of two Southerlys with the alternate rigs which only confirmed the differences that were expected. Interestingly many of the builders who offer self tackers also offer conventional genoas, so hedging their bets in the market place.

Overall the conventional genoa still dominates the market which seems to suggest that it is the better compromise for most people. Of course some will argue that neither is the best compromise and that other alternatives such as a cutter with self tacking staysail are better!

 

[Rossynant]

TOf course some will argue that neither is the best compromise and that other alternatives such as a cutter with self tacking staysail are better!

Sure some will And self tacking staysail is there already.
OP may, should he be unhappy with this, just fit a light genoa or such before it, it'll be also handy for windward in calms. As in Reinke set-up - it really worked nicely but jib was bigger, indeed. http://www.reinke-yacht.de/bootstypen/taranga.htm

Possible to boom the jib out for downwind, even a boathook is enough + sheet hardened to keep it stuck. I used this method often, sail set at some 50 deg to boat, works wonders and good from close reach down, once set.
But naturally this one on Hansa looks short...

 

[rwoofer]

Generally go with the comments already made, that they are good upwind, but poor in lightwinds and as soon as you are not closehauled.

The issue is really one of the aspect ratio. With what was the recent trend towards big mainsails, jibs have become high aspect and therefore self-tacking ones very high aspect. To make a v. high aspect jib work you tend to need a very stable sail material as you need masses more leech tension to stop the sail twisting off, which is why as soon as you ease the sheets even just a little they twist off dramatically and you often find on reaches that the top part is just flapping in the wind.

Some boats are starting to balance the sail plan a bit more by having the mast further back. This would reduce the aspect ratio and therefore make a self-tacking jib more usable. So given the generalisation it is also worth specifically checking the sailplan of the Hanse.

 

[Wansworth]

Two points on the down side,the boom can turn the foredeck into a very dangerous place if the sail gets to thrashing about and then when the boom is stowed amidships its always in the way,well thatas what I found and I chucked the thing ashore.Better normal staysail.

 

[prv]

Two points on the down side,the boom can turn the foredeck into a very dangerous place if the sail gets to thrashing about and then when the boom is stowed amidships its always in the way,well thatas what I found and I chucked the thing ashore.Better normal staysail.

Most self-tacking jibs (as opposed to staysails on cutters) don't have booms, though, instead a curved track with a traveller.

Pete

 

[Wansworth]

Most self-tacking jibs (as opposed to staysails on cutters) don't have booms, though, instead a curved track with a traveller.

Pete

Ah right,mis read the question,so one of those newfanggled things

 

[sukris]

I have a Hanse with a self tacking jib and found it really useful. I generally sail with a crew of two, either cruising or club white-sail racing. When racing, it's fantastic for short-tacking in the shallows to cheat the tide - it's just a matter of pushing the tiller over. I've watched crew in other boats suffer with constant trimming. Running, I pole the jib out using a whisker pole. The main seems to be oversize compared to other similar sized boats which compensates for having a smaller jib.

When cruising, it's just so convenient. Tacking in light airs is effortless and graceful (hopefully!), slowly coming through the wind and bearing away without fuss. The jib has vertical battens to help the leech keep its shape without undue tension - twist is controlled by positioning the clew in one of 5 positions. I wouldn't go back to a 'conventional' jib/genoa now.

Chris.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

I have a selftacking jib and I love it.

We do all our windward work with it. Yes, a perfectionist might argue slightly better performance with a bigger sail, but I am a cruising sailor and I tend to sail a little off the wind for comfort rather than as close hauled as possible.

Anyone who tells you that you can do I just as easily single handed is missing the point. I can short tack up a river between moorings, tacking every ten seconds if I want to. How long are you going to keep that up on your own, let alone the safety aspect of stopping your lookout and letting go of the helm.

What most people miss is the fact that it works well downwind as well. As the leach is open it will stay slightly to windward without a pole, so we can sail almost directly downwind with no pole and even if we screw up and get the wind behind the sail it just flops over onto the same side as the genoa.

 

[Rossynant]

Exactly the idea I liked - thinking of this for my boat now. This is vertically battened? Could You post photo of sheet/track detail, please?

 

[blackbeard]

I have a selftacking jib and I love it.

......
What most people miss is the fact that it works well downwind as well. As the leach is open it will stay slightly to windward without a pole, so we can sail almost directly downwind with no pole and even if we screw up and get the wind behind the sail it just flops over onto the same side as the genoa. ....

This is interesting; I have an S/T jib on my (UK) Hunter 245 and, as you say, it's really easy when going to windward, but downwind it's a PAIN, it's reluctant to settle either to windward or to leeward, periodically going over to the other side and then back again. It doesn't give much drive anyway, so I sometimes just roll it away.
Am I reading you aright - you set a genoa as well as the S/T jib? maybe that's the secret. I don't have a genoa (I could use the scooper (=cruising chute) but that means a lot of fiddling about, which rather defeats the object). I have thought about a pole to push it out to windward, that should work but means a trip to the foredeck (must experiment).
Or is there a secret to S/T jib taming downwind, which I haven't yet discovered?

 

[AliM]

I guess it depends where you sail. We are on a narrow river where the prevailing wind is usually against us, so short tacking, with just the two of us, is brilliant and effortless with the self tacker. We also have a code zero, which we use more often than we expected, on a furler, so it's easy to handle. We find that there is just a small range of wind direction/strength where we miss out. We have extra sheets which we put onto the self tacker when we are sailing off the anchor, or similar manoeuvres, where backing the jib would be helpful.

 

[Cloven]

This is interesting; I have an S/T jib on my (UK) Hunter 245 and, as you say, it's really easy when going to windward, but downwind it's a PAIN, it's reluctant to settle either to windward or to leeward, periodically going over to the other side and then back again. It doesn't give much drive anyway, so I sometimes just roll it away.
Am I reading you aright - you set a genoa as well as the S/T jib? maybe that's the secret. I don't have a genoa (I could use the scooper (=cruising chute) but that means a lot of fiddling about, which rather defeats the object). I have thought about a pole to push it out to windward, that should work but means a trip to the foredeck (must experiment).
Or is there a secret to S/T jib taming downwind, which I haven't yet discovered?

Similar set up on our Hunter Channel 323. We carry a short spinnaker pole which we use to pole out the S/T jib when going downwind. Just fit an extra sheet from the clew led back to the cockpit for control (actually we just use one of the scooper/cruising chute sheets). We carry a similar but longer pole to pole out the cruising chute if that is up.

 

[Lucky Duck]

It was the same with the S/T jib on my old Hunter 265, more often than not if we were going dead down wind then the jib would be furled away rather than letting it "hunt" from side to side.

The primary sailplan on my current boat has a 105% high aspect jib which seems easy enough to handle including short tacking when single handed so I have my doubts have much easier things would be had I splashed our for optional S/T kit.

 

[knuterikt]

Self tacking jib - experience

First - most stuff on a sailboat is compromises and choices must be based on how/where/when you use the boat.

My boat is a Beneteau Firts 38 with a masthead rig

We reduced from 135% genoa to a self tacking jib, it's sheeted on a track (that we installed) as on the Hanse.
our reasoning was.
-We sail a lot inshore so lots of short tacking
-Much of the time crew of one or two
-For downwind we already had a asymmetric on bowsprit, that we use a lot.
-Planned on a Code 0 as replacement for the 135% in light conditions (we bought this the year after).

We chose a self tacking jib with one long standing batten = more roach at the top better sail shape.
We used a local sail maker who took measurements on the boat and guaranteed good fit, i have seen some standard Hanse jibs with extremely bad shape did not want that.
Mine is made in cruising laminate and is still setting nice (four years)

Have rigged barber haulers, that can be adjusted from the cockpit - several uses:
-Close the slot when going upwind
-Open up and stabilize the sail when going downwind.
-Heave too - just cleat of the leeward barber before tacking or haul it to windward.

Some observations:
-we did not loose much speed be reducing the head sail, most noticeable downwind in light conditions.
-Tacking is a dream.
-We get better height than we had with the old 135% because of tighter sheeting angle.
-Never liked sailing on Genoa 135% alone - give unbalanced boat if I need to go upwind.
-When we need to reduce the jib it still has good shape for upwind work.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

This is interesting; I have an S/T jib on my (UK) Hunter 245 and, as you say, it's really easy when going to windward, but downwind it's a PAIN, it's reluctant to settle either to windward or to leeward, periodically going over to the other side and then back again. It doesn't give much drive anyway, so I sometimes just roll it away.
Am I reading you aright - you set a genoa as well as the S/T jib? maybe that's the secret. I don't have a genoa (I could use the scooper (=cruising chute) but that means a lot of fiddling about, which rather defeats the object). I have thought about a pole to push it out to windward, that should work but means a trip to the foredeck (must experiment).
Or is there a secret to S/T jib taming downwind, which I haven't yet discovered?

Yes we do. We use the larger sail to leeward so it stas that side. The selftacker goes to windward as in the photo.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

Exactly the idea I liked - thinking of this for my boat now. This is vertically battened? Could You post photo of sheet/track detail, please?

Yes it is vertically battened. You can see that in the picture above.

Single sheet goes halfway up the mast to a crane, then back to the coach roof.