Second Hand Boat Buyers Conundrum - AWB vs MAB and Seaworthyness

[steveej]

Hello,

I sold my Hurley 22 at the end of last season as it was just not big enough for family sailing. I didn't rush out to buy a new boat straight away as I was busy with a fastnet campaign and some med chartering this season so thought the boat wouldn't get much use, so my plan was to save up another year and buy either at the end of this season or at the start of next.

I want something suitable for coastal work but also want it to be seaworthy with the odd hop across the channel to france or the Channel islands. I want to also be able to take the kids with me aged 3 and 4 so the more stable at sea the better. Over the past 9 months of looking, my preferred choice has constantly changed from:

1. Mid eighties Sadler 29/34 £15k for the 29, £25k for 34
2. Mid eighties Beneteau First 305 on for £20k list price
3. Early 90's Beneteau First 310 on for £22k list price
4. Late 90's/early 00's Sun Odyssey 32/32.2 on for just under £30k
5. Late 90's/early 00's Bavaria 34 on for £35k

As you can see the budget has also been creeping up over time.

I have been reading lots of old threads on the AWB vs MAB relating to the fact that in some peoples eyes the large volume light displacement bav/jen/ben are not particularly seaworthy vessels. I understand all the arguments pros/cons of long keels vs fin keels, living accommodation vs seakindly motion at sea, but surely it is not as simple as that when you start to look at what you can get for your money.

I want the next boat to be a long term boat and don't want to keep changing all the time with the expense of refit and tweaking things you don't like. If I keep the Sadler for 10 years it will be over 40 years old! I am thinking it is too old and will not be worth anything when I come to sell it.

So what boat would you buy with a budget of £25 to 30k suitable for a family with young kids?

 

[pvb]

I have been reading lots of old threads on the AWB vs MAB relating to the fact that in some peoples eyes the large volume light displacement bav/jen/ben are not particularly seaworthy vessels.

That's a myth propagated by the MAB dinosaurs, for whom only a very old Westerly/Moody will satisfy their jaundiced view of how boats should be built. The truth is somewhat different:-

* Length for length, most newish AWBs are very similar in displacement to MABs.
* The weight of MABs is mainly down to the imprecise way they were moulded, with little men wielding buckets of resin too generously - adding weight but not adding strength.
* AWBs, especially in the last 10 years or so, are built to very high standards indeed, on production lines which guarantee consistent standards of strength and finish.
* There are countless thousands of AWBs safely and confidently handling sea conditions all over the world.
* Your family will appreciate the facilities found on a typical AWB far more than they would on a MAB.
* An AWB built this century will probably require less maintenance, important if you want to use the boat rather than mend it.
* An AWB built this century will be easier to sell when the time comes than a 40 year old MAB.

 

[bitbaltic]

I am also of the opinion that build quality is not a problem with AWBs. I am less convinced when it comes to hull form, where the big fat stern which accommodates twin wheels and twin aft cabins has given some less than pleasant rides in a quartering sea. but none of the 'awb' boats on your list are too extreme in that way, and for coastal/channel hops all of them will do just fine.

Having been in a similar position a few years ago my advice would be to look at least as much at the rig as the hull when searching for family comfort. Shorter rigs with conservative sa/d, masthead rigged and Genoa driven are (entirely IMHO) easier for a family to handle and importantly less temperamental and tippy than big fractional ones driven by the mainsail. On that basis I'd be drawn to the Sun Odysseys you mentioned.

one other thought is the bigger the boat the better. If you are big enough to not need to reef until 20knots and you never take your family out in stiffer weather then you will never need to reef with them on board, sounds silly but all the faff of reefing is when panic sets in for a family crew. Smaller boats at the 30 ft mark are a mixed blessing because they have the sort of range of a 36 footer but you have to sail them all the time- be prepared to reef and fiddle much more often. So buy the biggest thing you can get!

 

[Tranona]

Agree with everything that pvb says. There is a lot of hogwash talked about the so called deficiencies of AWBs while the owners happily ignore all of it and sail all over the place in them, not coming to any harm and having a great time.

Out of your list for a family boat there is one, the last a Bav 34 that stands out. The SO 32.2 as second choice, but far less spacious than the BAV. The 34 was the mainstay of the med charter fleet in its day and hundreds were sold. Indeed when I tried to buy a new one in 2000 for 2001 I could not get delivery until well into 2002, so bought a 37.

I know of a very well cared for 2000 model for sale, but you won't get a good one for £30k - your original estimate of £35k is about right. Great boat for small children as you have 2 large separate cabins (or even 3 on some versions), good water capacity and secure cockpit plus all the domestic goodies that you rarely find on older boats.

 

[Jcorstorphine]

Trying again on proper computer as smart phone deleted my post.

My question is, I know what an AWB is but WTF is a MAB. The reason I ask is that I think I like MAB but I don't know what they are.

 

[Iminei]

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?213935-Abbreviations-AWB
:encouragement:

 

[Tranona]

Trying again on proper computer as smart phone deleted my post.

My question is, I know what an AWB is but WTF is a MAB. The reason I ask is that I think I like MAB but I don't know what they are.

Yes, you are about to buy one - a Manky Auld Boat Not that they are all like that (manky) but the term captures the essence of roughly pre 1990ish mostly British boats. They are now all old and many of them are manky as you have no doubt discovered. They also tend to be built to different design principles than newer boats which some claim leads to a lack of seaworthiness, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

My question is, I know what an AWB is but WTF is a MAB. The reason I ask is that I think I like MAB but I don't know what they are.

"MAB" is the owners of "AWBs' way of describing boats that are older than theirs... 'Manky Old Boat'.

My own Centurion 32 was 44 years young last March and, while she IS technically an 'old' Lady, she has aged gracefully, is still as stunning and a head-turner as she was when built in 1973 and nobody in his right senses with a sense of aesthetics would refer to her as "Manky"!

 

[jwilson]

If I had to beat into a Force 6/7/8+ regularly many older boats would be my preference, simply because they are generally a bit narrower sterned and in those conditions handle better. But I don't often choose to do that.

In the conditions I actually want to sail in these days a modern boat is faster, much more pleasant to live aboard, yet it will also get from A to B in bad weather if you have to: it will just rattle your teeth with the slamming. But you don't often need to do that.

As to size determining reefing, I've owned a heavy 28-footer that didn't need reefing till around 25-30 knots of wind, it just heeled a lot but kept on going with sidedecks awash. My present modern 35-footed gets the first reef at 12 knots of wind if going to windward. You can't heel it much as it will round up if you try.

Given your suggestions I'd probably pick the Bav 34 or Jeanneau 32 every time though if you want a better heavier weather boat the Sadler 34 is pretty good. But with growing young children space is really useful. And remember a Bav 34 is actually 36 ft long. Even in bad weather I'd rather be in a 36 ft AWB than a super-seaworthy 22-footer like your Hurley. Size matters, and also gives you much faster passage times.

 

[DoubleEnder]

If you want to buy an older boat you can bargain very hard on the price. They are widely available and the number of buyers is shrinking fast . . . . But like everyone else I say go for the newer boats. You can afford them, you'll spend less time and money mending and replacing bits, they will be waaaay more comfortable at anchor or tied up, and will be a lot more comfortable most of the time at sea. There will be rare points of sail when you might hanker after a slimmer, less slam prone hull. But that is unlikely to happen very often.

Nice big cockpit, separate sleeping cabins, big table, good fridge, better loo and maybe even a shower! Great for everyone. Kids get big fast and take up a lot of volume. Give them the aft cabin, they can listen to the slapping noise (one of the few real drawbacks to this style of hull, wave slap under the swim platform )

 

[CCJ]

That's a myth propagated by the MAB dinosaurs, for whom only a very old Westerly/Moody will satisfy their jaundiced view of how boats should be built. The truth is somewhat different:-

* Length for length, most newish AWBs are very similar in displacement to MABs.
* The weight of MABs is mainly down to the imprecise way they were moulded, with little men wielding buckets of resin too generously - adding weight but not adding strength.
* AWBs, especially in the last 10 years or so, are built to very high standards indeed, on production lines which guarantee consistent standards of strength and finish.
* There are countless thousands of AWBs safely and confidently handling sea conditions all over the world.
* Your family will appreciate the facilities found on a typical AWB far more than they would on a MAB.
* An AWB built this century will probably require less maintenance, important if you want to use the boat rather than mend it.
* An AWB built this century will be easier to sell when the time comes than a 40 year old MAB.

Talk to the Yardies who chock em up ashore, the hull skin is only there to keep the water out of the bedroom

 

[richardbrennan]

I would suggest you at least look at a Westerly Fulmar, no aft cabin but super secure berths in the saloon with built in lee boards, it sails well and stands up to bad weather. I looked at a new Bavaria 34 about 17 years ago. What really put me off personally more than anything was the large area of shiny fibreglass on the coach roof with no anti slip pattern, but as has been said, thousands obviously do not find it a problem.

 

[Daydream believer]

Talk to the Yardies who chock em up ashore, the hull skin is only there to keep the water out of the bedroom

But if that is all it has to do, & if it does it adequately, then what is the problem ?

 

[robertj]

If you are a die hard sailor who will go out in anything then certain boats will be better or more comfortable than the others. If you pick your weather and like space in port then the wide stern modern designs will suit better. Most french sail wide stern fast boats which are quick under sail reducing passage times and comfy while in port.
Take your choice and if you feel you have got it wrong, then defend your choice when on these forums.

 

[Daydream believer]

In the conditions I actually want to sail in these days a modern boat is faster, much more pleasant to live aboard, yet it will also get from A to B in bad weather if you have to: it will just rattle your teeth with the slamming. But you don't often need to do that.
.

I keep reading comments like that & just do not understand them . My AWB ( 2003 & not a twin wheeled jobbie & soon to be a MAB) is 31 ft & no way do i find it is any harder sailing to windward than some of the older designs I have sailed in the past. I certainly does not slam anything like people claim & it is certainly miles more drier than anything I have ever sailed before. It also performs well to windward & will leave many larger older boats behind

I think this slamming is a falacy created by MAB owners to justify their boat choice.

As for rounding up. I put first reef in 18kts in rough weather or 22kts in smooth water. It does not round up . It is stiff & if it heels too much I just ease the main a bit after I have flattened it first.

 

[doug748]

Hello,

I sold my Hurley 22 at the end of last season as it was just not big enough for family sailing. I didn't rush out to buy a new boat straight away as I was busy with a fastnet campaign and some med chartering this season so thought the boat wouldn't get much use, so my plan was to save up another year and buy either at the end of this season or at the start of next.

I want something suitable for coastal work but also want it to be seaworthy with the odd hop across the channel to france or the Channel islands. I want to also be able to take the kids with me aged 3 and 4 so the more stable at sea the better. Over the past 9 months of looking, my preferred choice has constantly changed from:

1. Mid eighties Sadler 29/34 £15k for the 29, £25k for 34
2. Mid eighties Beneteau First 305 on for £20k list price
3. Early 90's Beneteau First 310 on for £22k list price
4. Late 90's/early 00's Sun Odyssey 32/32.2 on for just under £30k
5. Late 90's/early 00's Bavaria 34 on for £35k

As you can see the budget has also been creeping up over time.

I have been reading lots of old threads on the AWB vs MAB relating to the fact that in some peoples eyes the large volume light displacement bav/jen/ben are not particularly seaworthy vessels. I understand all the arguments pros/cons of long keels vs fin keels, living accommodation vs seakindly motion at sea, but surely it is not as simple as that when you start to look at what you can get for your money.

I want the next boat to be a long term boat and don't want to keep changing all the time with the expense of refit and tweaking things you don't like. If I keep the Sadler for 10 years it will be over 40 years old! I am thinking it is too old and will not be worth anything when I come to sell it.

So what boat would you buy with a budget of £25 to 30k suitable for a family with young kids?

As suggested above, I would pick no 1 or number 5. For no better reason than I like them best. I also agree with the others a bigger boat is more likely to suit you longer term.

The Bavaria is lighter, roomier, bouncier, faster and more likely to turn upside down in a Fastnet storm.
The Sadler is older, slower, steadier at sea, smaller and less likely to turn upside down.

However you are not likely to test either to it's limits in family cruises to France.
You will have a lot of fussing with reefs on the big main of the Bavaria and have less to do on this account with the Sadler, which carries less canvas in it's masthead mainsail and will stand to be pressed more without becoming unstuck. Set against this a reefing a genoa is easy but not very efficient, so the Sadler loses out there. Getting a sail on each would help sort it out for you but, I appreciate this is not always easy.

Don't worry about what the boat is going to be worth in 10 years, if you buy a good un and look after it, you stand a chance of getting a reasonable return. Certainly a lot more than a 25 grand motor car. Many will think they have had their monies worth, that's the way I look at it.

The Bavaria is a very spacious boat particularly handy for a family if you have twin aft cabins, a number were used by sailing schools. The Sadler 34 has a snug aft cabin suitable for a couple of kids if they don't fight or one of them it they do.

 

[Daydream believer]

Having been in a similar position a few years ago my advice would be to look at least as much at the rig as the hull when searching for family comfort. Shorter rigs with conservative sa/d, masthead rigged and Genoa driven are (entirely IMHO) easier for a family to handle and importantly less temperamental and tippy than big fractional ones driven by the mainsail.

I disagree about the rig with big genoa. A small self tacking, or blade jib, with a big main is far easier to handle. I know because I sail single handed. The foresail is far more efficient if it is sailed fully out & not reefed. Modern mainsails with single line reefing properly set up are quick & easy to operate & can be done from the cockpit negating the need to go on deck which must be far better for a family crew.
A reefed main will set far more efficiently than a furled jib & can be handled by the helmsman - leaving the wife to tend to the kids ( or vice versa if not to upset the feminists!!!!!) & a self tacker needs no one except off wind which is no different to a larger sail. If it is rolled away then a nice big main will still drive the boat down wind.

 

[[3889]]

FWIW, I had a Benny 305 and thought it a great boat. Well balanced, reasonably dry, easily single-handed. In many ways better than my current, more modern AWB though lacking some of the refinements. MABs are the the equivalent of an antique chair.... nice if you like antiquity, not so good if you want comfort and practicality.

 

[lw395]

You can get more boat for your money with an older boat.
But any boat over ten years old, there is a whole range of things which can go wrong or wear out.
Some older boats have had continuous spending are need nothing done, some relatively new ones have a backlog.
Internal space is proportional to the cube of length, and families take up a lot of space. So a bigger slightly older boat might score.
OTOH the price of gear rises exponentially, I found a furling gear for a 40ft boat a lot more than I'd budgeted for after researching 33ft boats for instance.
Be rigorous with pricing up what you might spend on different boats.
A sail or two, new upholstery and an eberspacher can mullah your budget.
I would suggest looking at a wide variety. You are looking to buy one boat, not a 'typical Bav 32' let alone the average of any genre.

Do you have defined goals of what type of sailing you want to do?
Lots of weekends to Cherbourg might suggest a different choice than month long tours of Scottish waters.

 

[bitbaltic]

I disagree about the rig with big genoa. A small self tacking, or blade jib, with a big main is far easier to handle. I know because I sail single handed. The foresail is far more efficient if it is sailed fully out & not reefed. Modern mainsails with single line reefing properly set up are quick & easy to operate & can be done from the cockpit negating the need to go on deck which must be far better for a family crew.
A reefed main will set far more efficiently than a furled jib & can be handled by the helmsman - leaving the wife to tend to the kids ( or vice versa if not to upset the feminists!!!!!) & a self tacker needs no one except off wind which is no different to a larger sail. If it is rolled away then a nice big main will still drive the boat down wind.

That's the great thing about this forum. We have essentially the same rig yet different opinions.