Second Genoa?

[Zen Zero]

Our 20 year old 28ft masthead sloop wears a gigantic genoa on a roller and a relatively small main. We also have a tiny hank-on inner-stay-sail which we have never hoisted (!).

The problem is, when furled, the genoa won't point at all. Unfurled in a blow and the rail is in the water, scaring the passengers. Get any speed up and the boat will luff up uncontrolably and come to a halt in irons.

We can reduce the main and still point ok.

I'm wondering if I ought to carry a smaller genoa. The current one is about 150%. I wouldn't fancy trying to change a rollered genoa in a blow inthe middle of the sea though. What do other forumites think?

Thanks!

 

[maxi77]

On one boat I did have a smaller foresail and if I was expecting it to be windy I would change sails before I went out, worked fine

 

[Poignard]

I have a 28 foot masthead sloop with a furling genoa and she goes to windward with it partly furled but not as well as when the sail was new. Perhaps your sail is not very good.

 

[Solent sailer]

We have 3 for sails 140% one around 90% and a storm jib. We very rarely change the genoa as stowing the "new" 140% genoa with out scrunching it all up is difficult on the for deck. The stofm jib has a sock that raps around the furled genoa this works well.we tend to just set the reefed genoa as well as we can and put up with the slightly poorer performance

 

[prv]

I'm wondering if I ought to carry a smaller genoa. The current one is about 150%. I wouldn't fancy trying to change a rollered genoa in a blow inthe middle of the sea though. What do other forumites think?

I'm toying with the idea of having a second "heavy weather" jib, that starts slightly smaller than the genoa furled to the "2 reef" point. The idea would be to swap over in harbour before going out, if it looked likely to be a breezy trip. This jib could itself roll smaller if required, probably quite well as it would presumably be cut rather flat. Depending on how small it went while still setting ok, it might even serve as storm jib, answering the age-old conundrum of having to mess about re-rigging the sailplan just as things get truly unpleasant.

I suppose I should probably get some experience with the boat as she is first, though.

Pete

 

[Allan]

I carry three genoas, 120% heavyweight high clew, 150% midweight and 160% lightweight. They all have their jobs and are changed in port or at anchor, depending on the forecast. It works for me and means I rarely reef any of them.
Now, can I get on my new soapbox? If you want to have a genoa that works when partly furled, get rid of the sacrificial strip. Even with foam at the luff, it is the extra material of the strip that makes the centre baggy. It only takes minutes to fit a cover when you reach your destination.
Allan

 

[r_h]

Now, can I get on my new soapbox? If you want to have a genoa that works when partly furled, get rid of the sacrificial strip. Even with foam at the luff, it is the extra material of the strip that makes the centre baggy. It only takes minutes to fit a cover when you reach your destination.

a big +1

Getting rid of the sacrificial strip makes an enormous difference to the reefed sail shape and as Allan says a cover is quick and easy to rig.

 

[Zen Zero]

Now, can I get on my new soapbox? If you want to have a genoa that works when partly furled, get rid of the sacrificial strip. Even with foam at the luff, it is the extra material of the strip that makes the centre baggy. It only takes minutes to fit a cover when you reach your destination.
Allan

The cross-tree end cap nearly did that for us one very breezy tack last summer!

It's something I've never considered, but I see exactly what you mean, it's worth thinking about.

Thanks

I also like the idea of the heavyweight high clew 120%, do you know where I can get one second hand?

 

[lw395]

The OP's pointing issue could be related to the fairlead position.
The trouble is, with a few turns in, you can't move the sheet lead inboard on some boats because of the shrouds.
It might be worth trying a barberhauler or auxiliary sheet inside the shrouds?
You might find it's ok just to move the cars further forward than you'd like, and take in more jib, use it more for balance than for drive.
On some boats, what you want is a 100% decksweeping blade jib on inboard tracks IMHO.
Alternatively, set the jib as best you can, then ease the main down the traveller to match. This may work well in lumpy conditions.

 

[Grumpybear]

This year we replaced our 13 year old came-with-the-boat-when-new 150% genoa with a new 135% one, higher cut at the foot. It has transformed boat handling in anything over F4 (even allowing generously for the state of the old sail - which we replaced as much because it had torn twice as because of its bagginess) at a minor cost in boat speed - about half a knot - in lighter winds and no penalty at all when it pipes up. With a foam luff it sets better when reefed, and the boat both points higher and is better balanced. As we are getting on a bit, the reduction in winching loads is also welcome. The new genoa is more or less the same area as the main, so the rig is by no means an IOR type.

BTW, the original idea to reduce the area came from the nice people at Crusader Sails, who also delivered both the genoa and a new main in 5 weeks from phoned order, at a generous discount, in late March. Always happy to pass on the news of good service, even if it's Fred Drift.

 

[Rossynant]

The OP's pointing issue could be related to the fairlead position.

Exactly. When the idea was new there was an understanding that lead for sheet should not change with reducing sail, that means usually that normal line of sheet (on unfurled) goes perpendicular to forestay. This requires a certain shape of sail for given boat, may mean that for some angle of forestay the sail would not be a genoa strictly speaking, cause clew may need to be higher from deck...
A sail not using whole length of forestay may be adjusted up and down.

But of course 150% sail may just be too big, stretching too much into a bag. A bit smaller sail may be good addition, maybe flatter or less stretchy, or radial cut, whatever - just a sail meant to be rolled, and with that right angle of sheet.

 

[dunedin]

Start with a foam luff before thinking about extra sails. Transformed the pointing ability when furled on our boat, and the previous one.

We have a smaller sail (fantastic Kevlar jobbie) but far too much hassle to change sails with a 36 footer and 140/145% genoa.

 

[Zen Zero]

Start with a foam luff before thinking about extra sails. Transformed the pointing ability when furled on our boat, and the previous one.

We have a smaller sail (fantastic Kevlar jobbie) but far too much hassle to change sails with a 36 footer and 140/145% genoa.

"Foam Luff"! Would you believe I've never heard of such a thing?!

I found an olf thread here http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215634

This has opened up a totally new perspective, and makes perfect sense. But would require an extensive amount of stitching, on a 20 year old sail. Maybe it'd be better to get a new one made, not quite as big, with a padded luff in it ...

 

[LadyInBed]

I also like the idea of the heavyweight high clew 120%, do you know where I can get one second hand?

I rigged a removeable inner forestay about 6" inside the Genoa roller. Bought a s/h hank on sail that was about 120% and had it cut to make it a high cut 100% Yankee.
The inner forestay also means that I can also rig a storm sail.
I got the s/h sail from Seateach

 

[johnalison]

Generally, the smaller the boat, the more tender she is, so a 28' boat is more sensitive than latter-day 35 footers. It is hard to get a smaller boat to go well to windward in a blow, however good the genoa and the reeling system. A second, smaller, headsail made for this purpose makes good sense, though changing while at sea is never going to be fun but would be possible if needed. (A banked sailed is easier to handle).

 

[lenseman]

Our 20 year old 28ft masthead sloop wears a gigantic genoa on a roller and a relatively small main. We also have a tiny hank-on inner-stay-sail which we have never hoisted (!).

The problem is, when furled, the genoa won't point at all. Unfurled in a blow and the rail is in the water, scaring the passengers. Get any speed up and the boat will luff up uncontrolably and come to a halt in irons.

When the Genoa is unfurled, a large part will be aft of the mast and probably also aft of the keel? The main part of the vacuum which causes the sail to 'work' is aft and therefore will 'suck' the leach end of the Genoa towards the leeward side and if you lee rail is under, then the hull shape, in the water on the lee side, is going to also try and make your yacht turn to windward.

We can reduce the main and still point ok.

Can you part furl the Genoa until the moment of effort is forward of the mast and still point? Have you tried to part furl the Genoa?

I'm wondering if I ought to carry a smaller genoa. The current one is about 150%. I wouldn't fancy trying to change a rollered genoa in a blow in the middle of the sea though. What do other forumites think?

A smaller Genoa would certainly help.


.

 

[Zen Zero]

When the Genoa is unfurled, a large part will be aft of the mast and probably also aft of the keel? The main part of the vacuum which causes the sail to 'work' is aft and therefore will 'suck' the leach end of the Genoa towards the leeward side and if you lee rail is under, then the hull shape, in the water on the lee side, is going to also try and make your yacht turn to windward.



Can you part furl the Genoa until the moment of effort is forward of the mast and still point? Have you tried to part furl the Genoa?



A smaller Genoa would certainly help.


.

A smaller Genoa would help is what I'm thinking too; and 20 years is a fair innings for a sail I guess ...

 

[dunedin]

"Foam Luff"! Would you believe I've never heard of such a thing?!

I found an olf thread here http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215634

This has opened up a totally new perspective, and makes perfect sense. But would require an extensive amount of stitching, on a 20 year old sail. Maybe it'd be better to get a new one made, not quite as big, with a padded luff in it ...

Yes, a new sail sounds a good plan - speak to the sailmaker but probably a small downsize from 150% to 140-145% would not lose too much area for light winds, and a foam or rope luff will help hugely in stronge winds if done properly. They tend to be tapered so most effect in the middle just where needed

 

[stav]

My approach to this would be No2 sized roller genoa (new with all the bits), Detachable forestay to take a large 150% light weight genoa, and a no3/blade and a storm jib all on piston hanks. Use the roller for a quick sail in most conditions but if you have a longish passage and the roller genoa is not quite right use one of the other sails as appropriate.

Good luck with it.

 

[PeterWright]

20 years is beyond the call of duty!

In your OP, you told us that youe boat is 20 years old, but only confessed in a much later post that your genoa is of similar age - time to face up to the need to replace it! In lighter airs, a blown out sail will behave reasonably but, as tyhe wind gets up, the point of maximum draft blows aft creating lesss forward drive and more heeling force. The correct action is to increase halyard tension, to pull the draft forward, but in an old stretched sail, the halyard is likely to be at its limit with no adjustment left.

The fact that a sail works well in lighter airs is not evidence that it is not knackered. Im convinced that a new 140 - 150% Genoa will transform yourmoats performance in stronger winds. I would recommend that you have a rope padded luff and clear marks along the foot for the firsty three reefs. You will then need to mark the car positions on their tracks that correspond to these reefs. I believe you will find that she sails just as high rolled up as she does under full genoa, and she will heel less and go faster.

Rolled up beyond the three marks, even the new sail will start to lose shape and you will find you are not able to point so high. Once you have found the limitations of your new genoa is the time to start considering a second smaller sail. You want some overlap between the smallest size at which your big sail still works well and the size of the no.2, so 120 - 100% of the fore triangle is likely to be right. As others have said, the time to change down to the smaller sail is before you go to sea if a blow is forecast, unless of course you have a full crew onboard.

Lastly, spend some time talking to one or more sailmakers - they are mostly good sailors with a lot of experience. Don't do business with one who won't take the time to discuss your needs.