Seaworthiness / Stability data / Choices

[Elemental]

Hi all,

I'm considering buying a sailing cruiser sometime over the next 12 months or so. I'm a single parent with two teenage children (boy/girl), I have a reasonable amount of experience (around 4000 miles) and the kids are both competent dinghy sailors. We'd be based on the East coast, wanting to sail locally for the first year or so, but always with the possibility of a cross channel expedition and, later, Channel Isles cruising. I'm struggling to come up with a suitable shortlist of boats. As always I'm trying to trade off comfort (accomodation) and performance (seaworthiness). Something like an Oceanis 321 looks great for comfort (esp like the idea of three cabins + saloon) and OK east coast draft, but according to a review by James Jermain it's restricted to MCGA Cat3 waters (<20nm from safe haven) for charter/commercial purposes and therefore makes me wonder whether it's capable of cross channel cruises. So, my questions are really;

1. Is there a resource somewhere where where I can look up MGCA categories for boats (is this even a good idea)
2. What recommendations would the group make for suitable yachts. Other criteria are budget(<£40k), preferably wheel steered (not essential tho), easy to sail short handed.

TIA

Mark

 

[Bajansailor]

I am sure that an Oceanis 321 is eminently capable of cross channel cruises - if you do enough research you will probably find that quite a few have been across the Atlantic as well.
Most sailing yachts around 30' in length will cope with a transatlantic passage quite happily, provided that they are properly equipped and provisioned, and crewed by competent
persons.

I wouldnt worry yourself about the MCGA categories - go for the boat that appeals to you, and which ticks most of the boxes on your list of requirements.

This Oceanis sounds like she is a strong contender.

 

[Birdseye]

This link http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/technical/stabilitydata.htm will get you through to some RYA stability data. But its a difficult issue really, and I certainly dont think that the simpla AVS figure gives you any sort of a guide.

Incidentally, wheel steering and single handing dont go together very well - difficulty in many cases getting to sheet winches and the mainsheet.

I'd be inclined to go for something like a tiller steered sadler 34 - very seaworthy.

 

[moondancer]

Stability figures do not tell the whole story at all. The Ovni for example has very low AVS yet is, IMHO, deservedly, one of the most popular Blue Water cruising boats.

My advice is don't overestimate what you will use the boat for in the first couple of years, go secondhand and cheap and be prepared to change boats a couple of times before you know what you want.

 

[DaveS]

Another vote for both second hand and tiller steering. And get an Autohelm - it transforms short / single handed sailing. And a spare.

 

[johnalison]

I'd second Sadler 34 and the other advice. A boat like that will need far less sail adjustment and reefing and will generally look after you in all weathers.

What you need to do is to develop an eye for how a boat will behave from studying its form above and below the water. In general, a boat with lots of space inside, especially in the bows, will bounce around on the water and not drive well to windward and be less comfortable. A fine entry at the bow is essential to good speed and a comfortable boat and some accommodation has to be sacrificed, though most modern craft do a good job if handled well. At sea, snug is comfortable.

 

[photodog]

I went through the same process myself 3 years ago, I was very concerned about stability, and Swmbo wanted a wheel.

I wouldnt worry about the Mcga thingy, look at the CE category and the Stability curve if you are concerned, thats probably more relevent, and then kit the boat out for your use.

Her are some choices that you may wish to look at...

Dufour 32 (Ce B- Tiller or wheel)
Bavaria 31 (Circa 1999) CE A- Wheel- AVS of 137)
Bav 32 (CE A Wheel)
Oceanis 311 (Wheel or Tiller)
Jeunaue (?) 32- (CE B- Wheel or Tiller)

Our top choice would have been a wheel steered Dufour 32 with a deep keel, but I couldnt find a decent one, So we went for a Bavaria 31 (1999) and I am dead chuffed we did so, (Though I am sure others will scorn!!) Its got plenty of interior space, with her deep keel and FB main shes quick and with her rather wierd mainsheet to the top of the binnacle she is REALLY easy to handle short handed,,,
Plus shes narrow in the beam, doesnt slam too much, has a very high AVS, is Category A, and GermanLloyds certified.

With a reasonable level of gear they are around 39-40k.
Look for one with Radar and Heating!

Of course if I could have picked ANY boat, then I would have had a Sadler 34, or a Rival 34 or a Contessa 32. All of which can be had prime for under 40k, but in reality these boats are all older, require more maintance (Probably) and Swmbo wanted a "Modern" boat.

Sail a bunch on charter, that will help, then look at loads of different boats.

Have fun.. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[William_H]

I would strongly suggest that if you want the teenagers to sail with you then get them to coose the boat (especially the girl) or at least give them the immpression that they are are choosing the boat.
When you get it and go sailing try to make them make decisions, steer the boat and generally feel they are in charge.

Teenagers can make wonderfull sailors but you have to let them make their mistakes and what ever you do don't supervise or nag.
Of course you have to supervise but don't let them know you are really in charge.
If you approach this with care and skill you will have companions and crew for life but if you blow it you will be a sole sailor. You need to be very confident yourself so it may be better to get in as much experience yourself as possible before risking their enjoyment. Having said that all sailing is of course crisis management.

One thing you can do is let them have parties with their friends on the boat and you not there (or hidden away). As they get more skilled let them take the boat on short trips without you. That will give them a feeling of ownership. Trust me it is worth risking the ship or a little damage to get them on side. olewill

 

[boatmike]

Agree entirely. Stability curves are misleading to anyone who does not understand the subject thoroughly and a boat that seems to be very "stable" and "stiff" can in fact be less "seaworthy". All cats for instance will appear to be very "stable" but if overpressed some can be dangerous in the wrong hands compared to a deep keeled narrow beamed cruiser that very easily sails at high angles of heel but comes back up again when rounded up. If you do look at stability curves look at the angle of vanishing stability. This is the angle at which it takes only a puff to blow her over. Cats, while stiff have a very low angle but it will take a big wind and sea to reach it. A seaworthy monohull has a high angle but reaches it more easily giving you obvious warning of impending danger.
I would always advise that someone in your position look for a boat that is of moderately high displacement, not extremely beamy, and has a high ballast ratio. Don't be too beguiled by spacious saloons. It's no accident that the market was at one time dominated by relatively heavy but safe boats like the Westerly's and Moody's and these still make super family cruisers in your price range.

 

[Elemental]

[ QUOTE ]
This link http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/technical/stabilitydata.htm will get you through to some RYA stability data. But its a difficult issue really, and I certainly dont think that the simpla AVS figure gives you any sort of a guide.

Incidentally, wheel steering and single handing dont go together very well - difficulty in many cases getting to sheet winches and the mainsheet.

I'd be inclined to go for something like a tiller steered sadler 34 - very seaworthy.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the link. Also there is some interesting novice information on the whole stability / AVS / Design category / STIX area.

Your point about tiller steering is good too - and I've already got Sadler 34 on my list...

 

[Elemental]

[ QUOTE ]

Her are some choices that you may wish to look at...

Dufour 32 (Ce B- Tiller or wheel)
Bavaria 31 (Circa 1999) CE A- Wheel- AVS of 137)
Bav 32 (CE A Wheel)
Oceanis 311 (Wheel or Tiller)
Jeunaue (?) 32- (CE B- Wheel or Tiller)


[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the recs. I hadn't really considered the Bavaria's
[ QUOTE ]

Of course if I could have picked ANY boat, then I would have had a Sadler 34, or a Rival 34 or a Contessa 32. All of which can be had prime for under 40k, but in reality these boats are all older, require more maintance (Probably) and Swmbo wanted a "Modern" boat.


[/ QUOTE ]
And that (low maintenance/modern-ness) is an area of concern for me too as I have little enough spare time as it is. Plus a "Modern", airy boat will be more attractive to the kids too.
The 321 is Cat A so I'm re-assured that summertime cross channel hops will be fine and, realistically, that would be the absolute max I can expect to do in the first year or two.

Mark