Seamaster 23 vs leisure 23

[mike_1987]

Hi all can I pick your minds
If faced with the choice between the above 2 in similar price and condition which would you chose and why
The seamaster is the fin keel and the leisure is bilge keeled
Many thanks
Mike

 

[Daydream believer]

Any bets on how far this will go before someone says neither & suggests a Benny 235 orsomething?

 

[mike_1987]

Any bets on how far this will go before someone says neither & suggests a Benny 235 orsomething?

If someone has a better suggestion under 5k then I’m all ears the two 23’s are the absolute smallest we can make use of with 2 adults and 3 kids

 

[Laysula]

Match the boat to your sailing area. If you sail in an area with lots of drying harbours or you want to dry out on a beach for the kids to play then your choice should be obvious.

 

[Praxinoscope]

A lot depends upon what you want to do and where.
Bilge keels have the advantage of visiting drying out harbours and shallow waters, but won't normally head to wind as well as a fin keel. Fin keel will be a bit faster, sail closer to the wind and be a bit more comfortable in a wind over tide situation, but not too good for drying out (without Legs) and needs a bit more water underneath.
Moorings for bilge keel (assuming not going into a marina) can often be found cheaper than those for fin keel.
As for the boats themselves Leisure were built by Cobramold and were quite substantially made, I'm not familiar with the Seamaster so can't comment on their construction.
Both seem to give good accommodation for their size which suggests that they won't be the fastest boats on the water, but should be suitable for your requirements.

 

[Tamar]

Why not look for a centaur?, A lot more room especially with a small family, there seem to be a lot for sale. I had a 22ft bilge Keeler when my kids were small, a bit tight to say the least.

 

[Tamar]

Any bets on how far this will go before someone says neither & suggests a Benny 235 orsomething?

Me

 

[mike_1987]

Why not look for a centaur?, A lot more room especially with a small family, there seem to be a lot for sale. I had a 22ft bilge Keeler when my kids were small, a bit tight to say the least.

We really like centaurs but everything we see in budget is either a wreck or 3 hours drive away (or both)
I’ve viewed a fair few boats over the past year and had my share of time wasting sellers the most recent sold the boat whilst we were on route to view it

 

[mike_1987]

A lot depends upon what you want to do and where.
Bilge keels have the advantage of visiting drying out harbours and shallow waters, but won't normally head to wind as well as a fin keel. Fin keel will be a bit faster, sail closer to the wind and be a bit more comfortable in a wind over tide situation, but not too good for drying out (without Legs) and needs a bit more water underneath.
Moorings for bilge keel (assuming not going into a marina) can often be found cheaper than those for fin keel.
As for the boats themselves Leisure were built by Cobramold and were quite substantially made, I'm not familiar with the Seamaster so can't comment on their construction.
Both seem to give good accommodation for their size which suggests that they won't be the fastest boats on the water, but should be suitable for your requirements.

Interesting point re sailing wind over tide being more comfortable in a fin keel I didn’t realise there was any difference
Mooring will be on the river frome in Poole harbour both boats are well within the 4.5foot max draught
Speed isn’t that much of an issue as we aren’t planning long passages so half a knot won’t make that much difference to us

 

[mike_1987]

Match the boat to your sailing area. If you sail in an area with lots of drying harbours or you want to dry out on a beach for the kids to play then your choice should be obvious.

Will mainly be used in and around Poole Harbour so drying out doesn’t make much difference to us
My kids must be the only thing new in the world that can’t stand the beach
Although i can see me drying out on a beach for a mid season hull scrape

 

[Tamar]

Interesting point re sailing wind over tide being more comfortable in a fin keel I didn’t realise there was any difference
Mooring will be on the river frome in Poole harbour both boats are well within the 4.5foot max draught
Speed isn’t that much of an issue as we aren’t planning long passages so half a knot won’t make that much difference to us

Mike, if you can stretch to 6 k there is a nice centaur for sale in Cardiff, no connection to me, I just googled centaur for sale, it's been re engined by the looks

 

[Tranona]

Either will do the job. The Seamaster is an earlier generation design (by Laurent Giles) and the Leisure a bit more "modern, particularly if the later SL version.

However the overriding thing is the condition and standard of the gear, particularly the engine and the sails/rig. agree bilge keels are not a big advantage, even in Poole as the places you can actually dry out, and the number of times a year you can do it are very limited. also because of the irregular tides the actual time you are fully dry is very limited, often only 3 hours. I originally had bilge keel boats in Poole and even when the children were small I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of times we dried out in around 10 years. With the draft of that size boat you can go to just about all the decent anchorages in the harbour at any state of the tide.

If you follow the normal pattern you will probably move up in size if the family like it in a couple of years and either boat will be fine plus easy to sell if you move on.

 

[Praxinoscope]

I agree with Tranona, the Poole area is generally fine for single keels, as is the majority of the South Coast, and as you will be based in Poole there is little need for adopting a bilge keel, unless you want to visit Mudeford or other similar harbours.
38mess has suggested a Centaur if you can stretch the budget, certainly a proven design with lots of accommodation, with a good reputation, an active class association, and I would certainly consider stretching the budget if possible. I should have added that you may be able to negotiate on price as certainly in our area boats aren't selling well.

 

[mike_1987]

That

Either will do the job. The Seamaster is an earlier generation design (by Laurent Giles) and the Leisure a bit more "modern, particularly if the later SL version.

However the overriding thing is the condition and standard of the gear, particularly the engine and the sails/rig. agree bilge keels are not a big advantage, even in Poole as the places you can actually dry out, and the number of times a year you can do it are very limited. also because of the irregular tides the actual time you are fully dry is very limited, often only 3 hours. I originally had bilge keel boats in Poole and even when the children were small I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of times we dried out in around 10 years. With the draft of that size boat you can go to just about all the decent anchorages in the harbour at any state of the tide.

If you follow the normal pattern you will probably move up in size if the family like it in a couple of years and either boat will be fine plus easy to sell if you move on.

Thanks
The seamaster I’ve seen needs a bit of work (antifoul chart plotter wind thingy and a depth sounder) but has a relatively new engine
I’m going to view the leisure tomorrow it’s not the more modern sl unfortunately but it’s in the water and the seller says is ready to go although the lat one I seen that was ready to go had it’s engine on the galley bench ?
The original plan was to wait another year or so and get the bigger more expensive boat but I’m impatient

 

[mike_1987]

I agree with Tranona, the Poole area is generally fine for single keels, as is the majority of the South Coast, and as you will be based in Poole there is little need for adopting a bilge keel, unless you want to visit Mudeford or other similar harbours.
38mess has suggested a Centaur if you can stretch the budget, certainly a proven design with lots of accommodation, with a good reputation, an active class association, and I would certainly consider stretching the budget if possible. I should have added that you may be able to negotiate on price as certainly in our area boats aren't selling well.

I’m currently trying to persuade the wife we need a centaur if nobody hears from me again I’m probably buried in the back garden

 

[Tamar]

I’m currently trying to persuade the wife we need a centaur if nobody hears from me again I’m probably buried in the back garden

The asking price for the Cardiff centaur is 6k, I'm pretty sure it's open to negotiation, possible get it for around 5k, I'm certainly tempted, but I already have a boat which takes up most of my time

 

[greggron]

That

Thanks
The seamaster I’ve seen needs a bit of work (antifoul chart plotter wind thingy and a depth sounder) but has a relatively new engine
I’m going to view the leisure tomorrow it’s not the more modern sl unfortunately but it’s in the water and the seller says is ready to go although the lat one I seen that was ready to go had it’s engine on the galley bench ?
The original plan was to wait another year or so and get the bigger more expensive boat but I’m impatient

If the Seamaster has a new engine, that’s the one. As a previous owner of a leisure 22, which is all but the same as the 23, I can say from experience they do not sail to windward at all well. If the L23 has an inboard then that’s ok as long as it’s quite new and does not require replacement. If she has an outboard, forget it. If you go forward of the mast to anchor, pick up a buoy or adjust the headsail, the screw will tend to lift out of the water.

 

[Tranona]

That

Thanks
The seamaster I’ve seen needs a bit of work (antifoul chart plotter wind thingy and a depth sounder) but has a relatively new engine
I’m going to view the leisure tomorrow it’s not the more modern sl unfortunately but it’s in the water and the seller says is ready to go although the lat one I seen that was ready to go had it’s engine on the galley bench ?
The original plan was to wait another year or so and get the bigger more expensive boat but I’m impatient

If the Seamaster is the one in Portland then it looks like it should buff up quite well. The Beta is a good thing to have. Vary little of this type/price boat on the market in our area and a weekend's work would see that in the water and ready to go.

 

[LittleSister]

As a previous owner of a leisure 22, which is all but the same as the 23,

That's not correct. The Leisure 23 has a different hull to the Leisure 22 - said to be a significant improvement on the 22's hull.

The Leisure 23 hull was designed to accept the deck/cabin moulding from the 22, and so the upper parts of the earlier (non-SL) Leisure 23 looks the same as the 22, but the hull doesn't (most obvious is the direction of the slope of the transom).

Having established the Leisure 23, a new, more modern looking top was designed for the same 23 hull - that was designated the Leisure 23SL.

Purchasers of the non-SL 23s should beware that Leisure 22s are sometimes erroneously labelled Leisure 23s.

Leisure 22



Leisure 23



Leisure 23SL

 

[mike_1987]

If the Seamaster is the one in Portland then it looks like it should buff up quite well. The Beta is a good thing to have. Vary little of this type/price boat on the market in our area and a weekend's work would see that in the water and ready to go.

Indeed it is the one in Portland
We went to view it a few weeks ago but were unsure at the time due to the lack of electrics but having seen how cheaply a decent setup can be cobbled together via Facebook and eBay put it back on the list