seagull. cheap oil and starting it

[nyx2k]

just been given an old seagull 40+.
i was in Wilkinsons today and they sell outboard oil at 2.50 a ltr and it says suitable for small engines. this is half the price of tcw3 oil and at 10-1 it'll cost a lot more.

also i presume when it comes to start it the top housing should spin in the direction of the arrows.

 

[mortehoe]

Ignore what it says on the petrol tank

If you mix at 10 : 1 it won't run. Make you mix at least 25 : 1. My 1947 Seagull 4hp runs best at 40 : 1 with today's 2 stroke oil. It's a fine beast and is reckoned to be a gas-guzzling indestrucible /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif [It comes into biennial service when the original much modified Honda BF2 needs a summer colestomy!!!!]

 

[VicS]

You do not tell us the age or the serial number, which will identify it but most Seagull forty plus engines originally ran on 10:1. A few later ones ran on 25:1. Many earlier ones , but not very early ones which had smaller bearings, can be converted to 25:1. Or they can be run on 16:1 with adjustment of the carburetter. You should use a 2 stroke outboard engine oil as they run very cool. (not garden machinery oil)

Do not use less than 25:1 or you will shorten the life of the bearings considerably.

That's being very brief about it. For full details see http://www.saving-old-seagulls.co.uk/ and for expert advice http://www.saving-old-seagulls.co.uk/FORUM/index.php

Change the gearbox oil (SAE 140)

It spins clockwise. A short starter rope with a knot in the end will wind onto the top of the flywheel

 

[VicS]

Re: Ignore what it says on the petrol tank

[ QUOTE ]
If you mix at 10 : 1 it won't run.

[/ QUOTE ] Nonsense, unless it has been converted to 25:1. The majority ran, and unless converted, still do run on 10:1

 

[jwilson]

Re: Ignore what it says on the petrol tank

My Seagull 40 was bought new in about 1967 and the makers instruction book that came with it said to NEVER run on less than 10:1 - straight 30 motor oil was recommended, not outboard or two-stroke oil. It was the most reliable piece of machinery I've ever owned, though also horribly noisy and messy and smokey and smelly. I'm told later models were 20:1 mix, if you used two-stroke oil.

 

[boatbuilder]

If you havent run it for a while there is a cork washer in the petrol tap that will leak. Once this washer is wet and expanded it will be ok.
So dont be worried about fuel pissing out.
10:1 is correct.

 

[VicS]

Re: Ignore what it says on the petrol tank

[ QUOTE ]
1967 and the makers instruction book that came with it said to NEVER run on less than 10:1 - straight 30 motor oil

[/ QUOTE ] I don't think outboard engine oil was around in 1967. Without going to the S-O-S site to check I am not sure but I think engines as old as 1967 should not in fact be run on less than 10:1 as they have the smaller bearings.

It all on the S-O-S site for anyone to check.

I have two. A 40 Featherweight from 1974 which is in regular use on my tender and which I have converted that to 25:1 so that it is not quite so oily and messy to handle, and a 40+ from 1973 bought for my Mirror dinghy but seldom used now. Also converted to 25:1.

It's an official mod to convert them to 25:1 (where they can be) What has to be done varies with the carbs fitted and in some cases no mod is necessary.

I did use a straight SAE 30 oil at 10:1 at one time. What can I say, very smokey!!

 

[VicS]

[ QUOTE ]
Once this washer is wet and expanded it will be ok.

[/ QUOTE ] The trick is to take the centre out of the tap (don't lose the little screw that holds it in) and to drop it into boiling water for a short while. That expands the cork. Again see the SOS website for full details. If necessary the cork can be replaced. New corks available from SOS and instructions on the website. Also hints on how to prevent it drying out again.

 

[nyx2k]

its a 40+ from 1972. ive used tcw3 oil at 10-1 but at the weekend I'll get some cheap outboard oil from wilkinsons.

 

[rich]

My first job as a marine engineer(school leaver) in Jan 1966,was to open the wooden crates holding new seagulls and (pdi)them. 3/4 pint to 1 gall of normal engine oil /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
41 blxxdy years ago already,

 

[VicS]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll get some cheap outboard oil from wilkinsons.


[/ QUOTE ] Our friends on Saving old Seagulls will say don't use it, not suitable for outboards, just air cooled 2strokes.

I don't have a convenient Wilkinsons so I wont be getting any but I'm a bit miffed that Castrol GTX Diesel is £3 less than I paid in Halfords a couple of weeks ago.

 

[ex-Gladys]

I had a Century for a couple of years of 65 vintage, that was a 25:1 convert

 

[VicS]

[ QUOTE ]
I had a Century for a couple of years of 65 vintage, that was a 25:1 convert

[/ QUOTE ] It is generally recommended (see the SOS website) that engines prior to 1968 remain on 10:1 mixture due to different bearings from later models. Many have been run on 25:1 without problems though. If being worked hard it would probably be wise to stick with 10:1.

After 1978 they left the factory with jets (Amal carbs) or needles (Villiers carbs) fitted for 25:1

Bing carbs needed no alteration.

 

[nyx2k]

i'll read the seagull site tonight when i have time. do i need a conversion kit then to run at 25-1. it'll only be pushing a 3.5mtr dinghy inshore and up a river in the summer.

 

[oldharry]

If it is intended to run on 10:1, then run it on 10:1 and dont mess about. If it has been modified to run 25:1, then it will have a different size main jet in the carb to retain the correct fuel/air mix.

SOS site will tell you the difference in jet sizes.

There is a considerable difference between Outboard 2T oil, Garden machinery 2T oil and Motorcycle 2T oil, and they should never be exchanged as they are designed to work in specific heat ranges. A motorcycle oil (which is designed to run in a very hot engine) will foul the plug of the very cool running outboard, not only with oil, but quite frequently metallic looking 'ash' which forms across the plug electrode, stopping the engine stone dead. These hard ash particles can damage the piston and bores quite severely. In the same way an outboard oil will not properly lubricate a bike engine, as it will be burning off too quickly.

Garden tools are in an 'intermediate' range, and less likely to cause problems, but why risk trouble by using the wrong oil?

I think VicS is right in saying that 'outboard specific ' 2T oils had not been developed in the 60s, so that when we ran 2stroke marine engines it was very much more 'hit and miss' to find an oil that suited a particular engine. I remember clearly the frustration of trying to find the brand of oil that would run an outboard reliably and not foul the plug. Different makes worked better for different engines.

A couple of spare plugs and plug spanner were an essential part of the running kit in those days, and it was sometimes necessary to change the plugs every few days.

 

[nyx2k]

i'll run it at 10-1 with tcw3 spec oil. it makes it a little more expensive but i dont suppose it'll burn more than a gallon of petrol all day

 

[VicS]

[ QUOTE ]
do i need a conversion kit then to run at 25-1

[/ QUOTE ] Just a different needle.

It should have a Villiers carb like this one on my Featherweight

If you unscrew the knurled ring at the top of the carb and lift out the throttle valve then unscrew the adjusting screw in the top of the piston you can remove the needle and the spring under the head of it. Look at the needle and you should see a number like this

3 is for 10:1 needles for 25:1 are no.2 (possibly 2½) although later ones are not marked I believe.

All you have to do is fit a no 2 needle which you can obtain from SOS. The correct adjustment of the adjusting screw is flush or up to 1½ turns down (check that on SOS), but in order to get my Featherweight to run without 4 stroking under light load I have had to take it just over 2 turns below flush.

Every thing you need to know and loads more as well is on the SOS website.

Some people have found that they can run on 16:1 and even 20:1 without changing the needle. It will probably have to be adjusted outside the normal range though.

Don't forget to check / change the gearbox oil. They always get water in them as there is no seal on the top. The correct oil is SAE140 and in theory Castrol D is still obtainable but you will probably get some 140 oil from an agricultural suppliers more cheaply.(It does not matter if it is an EP oil)

The 40+ will push a 3.5m dinghy along just fine, although rather noisily! I have one for my Mirror dinghy as well as the Featherweight which I use for the tender.

BTW you may find that even the standard shaft length is too long for your dinghy. In which case it is possible to fit a depth adjusting collar to raise it. (Not so elegant but a Jubilee clip round the drive shaft tube will to trick as well)