Seacheck - why do people refuse?

[JeremyF]

Within 15 mins of arriving at the Folly on Saturday, a decent chap from the RNLI Seacheck service called by, asking if I would like to spend an hour going through the Seacheck assessment service. It was a really good experience, and as Im kitting the boat out, it was great timing.

What surprised me was the assessor saying that a good number of people turn down the offer of the assessment. Its free, non-proscriptive, and good quality advice. Why on earth would someone say no? Its the closest thing I've had to a free lunch in a long time!

Jeremy Flynn

 

[Guest]

Guess I will have to make the trip to the Folly. I have tried on three occasions to arrange a Sea Check, but the RNLI have still not got back to me.
Sea Check is a great service and especially useful for people like me who have almost always sailed single handed and never on any boat but my own.

 

[escape]

But I'm sure tiu know there is no such thing as a free lunch.
Its a very small step from free non compulsory checks to inspections and acreditation,ask anyone who's cruised NZ lately.
My 'name' indicates what I want when I go sailing.It's my choice leave me to make it without judgement.

 

[kgi]

afraid i have to agree with escape, once voluntary assesment becomes the norm, compulsory is just around the corner. its the last real freedom left in the UK, to get on your boat and sail where you will. we could end up like the US... marine patrols fisheries patrol, sherriffs dept, pwc inspectors, national park service, coastguard, etc all looking for an excuse to board you, im with escape i go sailing to get away from the stress not have it follow me around cheers keith

 

[Jeremy_W]

I think it's because UNTIL YOU'VE DONE it can seem like an exam, which you are bound to fail. Equip your yacht for cruising around within the Solent for the first season and they can "get you" for not being fully equiped for coastal cruising. Equip her for coastal sailing and they can mark you down for not being fully prepared for a Channel crossing..... You're struggling to equip your boat as well as possible for the sailing you do within your budget and don't need some suit [or, even worse, some blazer] with an unrealistically expensive wish-list to come along and mark you as a safety FAIL.

The reality is that the assessors are practical yachtsman who have had the same financial struggles as all owners. The smart ones won't waste their breath extolling the virtues of EPIRBs and liferafts if your budget plainly will only just run to: A couple of extra metres of chain for the anchor; at least a handful of "in date" flares; and getting that bilge pump looked at asap.

You promise to look at these things and they'll then give you a few more ideas for when the budget permits. They welcome the chance to impart some useful information, give you some bumf and award you a certificate. If their advice makes you less likely to become a rescue statistic, they've done their job.

 

[rogerroger]

yes it is one of our last freedoms - but as boats get cheaper, electronics that tell you exactly where you are get better and less expensive, the more people take to the sea without training and end up calling on other people to risk their lives to come and get them when it goes belly up.

Sensible sailors get trained, build up experience gradually and call on all available sources of info to make them better sailors with better equiped boats - such as the SEA check.

I don't agree that it's the thin end of the wedge to compulsory tests. Compulsory training / testing / inspection will only come about as the result of too many deaths, accidents etc - caused by unprepared people, the precise issue the RNLI is addressing with SEA check.

Look at motorcycling over the past 25 years - there's a staggering difference in what's needed to jump on a motorbike now and this is due to bikers going out there and killing themselves and others (and yes, I've got a 600 cc Honda)

Roger Holden
www.first-magnitude.co.uk

 

[escape]

You seem to argue with yourself. IT IS BECAUSE OF RULES/LAW that you have to take compulsory tests/training to ride your bike.
The RNLI is a voluntary service financed purely by donations/subscription inluding my offshor membership.
I help support it to enable it to look after all who go to sea not to start to 'regulate'.
The RYA provide adequate training systems and publish exellent guides which if followed sensibly enable people to sail as safely as nature allows.
I am sure that if it became a regulator laying down rules,only responding to ''approved'' vessels it would cease to be the organisation it is.
When I go to sea with the most precious cargo-my family & friends- I take the responsabilty for them as a skipper.
I want & enjoy that reponsability but many dont and want an easy life letting others take the load.
Well buy your cotton wool and wrap tightly.

 

[Chris_Stannard]

I think you are missing the point, there is no compulsion about a Sea Check and the RNLI does not intend there should be. However if you chose to race under RORC you can be inspected and thrown out of a race for not being properly equipped. You could also be disqualified for your crew not wearing lifejackets when they have their oilskins on.

There is no such thing as a fail on a Seacheck. But remeber last year eight people lost their lives from yachts. at the same time there were many call outs of the Lifeboats for preventable emergencies. These included yachts who had an engine breakdowns but could still be sailed.

I have no doubt that with your experience you are fully aware of your responsibilities and have a well equipped boat. So do I and a long sailing experieince, but I still have my boat checked by another advisor on the grounds that a second pair of experienced eyes might see something I am missing.

However I recently came across the guy who was going offshore in a single engined power boat with no charts, flares, liferaft etc. He was new to the game and thought that as he had bought a boat it would be like a car and have everything it needed in it. People like that do need help for their own good and I think the RNLI policy of trying to offer them assistance is the right one.

Chris Stannard

 

[escape]

My point is that todays option is tomorrows requirement.
yes I could be disqualified for not having an RORC compliant vessel,my ball&cone are under specification!-but that is irrellavant.I go to sea taking the lives of my crew with me and I am charged with that responsability.
I make the judgements..wether to go or stay due to weather conditions,when to don life jackets, when to clip on,etc,etc.
You cannot legislate for all based upon the poorest quality, otherwise we will all end up at the lowest level.
We live in a country were despite the politcians we still have choice, leave us as much as you can.
This forum shows a great diversity of skill and experience.We are all learning,if you stop you're dead.Dont replace experience and the need to gain it with sticky lables and a ''done thatgot the T shirt philosophy,the very people you are trying to help will get the raw deal in the end.

 

[sailbadthesinner]

Wow heated debate
I think the problem is that legislation does not always ( in fact very rarely) helps solve the problems it was created to stop. Hard cases do not make good law. We still hear of 'dangerous' dogs atacking people despite the introduction of almost knee jerk laws after the last spate of attacks.

I am sceptical about the thin end of the wedge argument with regards Seacheck itself. I think the RNLI is merely trying to reduce call outs or make sure those call outs are not to recover bodies.

As to why people refuse, it would appear they are against on personal grounds or afraid the information is logged somewhere, or think it will cost money. personally i think it is a good thing for those who wish to, to have it. I would not like to see any more regs about going to sea. i think there are more pressing problems on land.

If it Cooks Flys or Floats, Rent it.

 

[Guest]

So presumably these checks ensure the owner is capable of making basic repairs to the engine, as engine failure is the cause of the majority of call outs.
No didn't think so.
I go with escape and dont encourage people without adequate experience from feeling safe because they've got their certificate.

 

[sailbadthesinner]

It depends how you view the thing. If you view it as lesson in how to be safer that is good. If you think it issues some sort of cert of immunity like a get out of jail free card, that is bad. Yes you should know how to fix an engine ( i do not but sail with someone who does) but i know how to sail quite well and regularly sail onto moorings & pontoons just for the practice. but i donot want to ban everyone who cannot fix an engine from setting off.


Looking at it it appears there are two camps. Those like me who view such things as useful . I realise that there will always be people who take to the water ill equipped and ill prepared. i think this will offer a help and maybe reduce that number. maybe i am a bit naieve and very optimistic.

I know any scheme like this will not catch the fool hardy and those who are single minded and spirited and want to find out for themselves. I also realise that many, if not most, of those people will never trouble the RNLI at sea.

The other camp seems just wants to be left to get on with it. I know the type, my father is one. They fear that this voluntary malarky is the start of more interfernence. If i know my father they will also just carry on sailing and regs be damned.

I would finally state that IMHO a very common cause of problems is complacency. I do not rule myself from being guilty of that once or twice. fortunately i have not been caught out to serious effect, but i have certainly had days not go to planand it has been my fault, not circumstances out my control.
I do apologise if i sound like iam preaching.

If it Cooks Flys or Floats, Rent it.

 

[milltech]

Re: I think I\'d refuse too

It's not about the check up, it's about someone univited and unannounced wanting to take up my weekend time. Last Saturday in Sainsburys they had a promo on marking up windows with registration numbers, I knew it was useful and that I should agree, but I'd just come out of the Dentist and the wife and I wanted to start our weekend jobs not hang around a car park.

Too many people think they can telephone to sell double glazing, or otherwise make a nuisance of themselves. We are private people and entitled to be, I think that's part of why I like the water anyway. When I'm not at work I expect to be left alone, (or not), but anyway at my choice.


John

 

[rogerroger]

Re: I think I\'d refuse too

No one was uninvited or unannounced for mine - I phoned them, and someone gave up his Saturday morning to come out on a cold October day to my swing mooring.

Roger Holden
www.first-magnitude.co.uk

 

[DavidP]

I would welcome any check of this sort,anytime even if it did interfere with what i was doing at the time; as most of the time im out their, im on my own day or night .
David.

 

[numenius]

Money!

For me, it's the fact that although I'd be interested to hear what they'd have to say, I already know (as do most of us I think) what I SHOULD have (naturaly I have the basics of anchor, worlds supply of flares, 2 radios, etc etc) and what I HAVEN'T got, but I don't have a bottomless pocket, and equally, like any such scheme (fire safety advice/home securtiy advice/car security advice) theres always more you could do if you had limitless funds. What I can afford I've got, and/or done, and being told I need to spend more money really would not help. I'm all for the scheme and applaud it as long as its voluntary, but not for me - I'm skint already!

http://members.lycos.co.uk/boaty1965/index.htm

 

[Guest]

Re: Seacheck: not the thin end of a wedge

I feel a touch saddened by the general response to this posting. Perhaps I am naive, but I do not see this as the handle of the legislation wedge. I see it as a useful service, provided free. There is still no compulsion for certification in this country, but like many I took the Yachtmaster classes to fill in the gaping holes in my knowledge.
We may have to face up to compulsory certification and policing, but that will almost certainly be imposed by Brusselles not the RNLI.
If someone is volunteering to help me, I am not going to discourage them. Would you turn away the RNLI lifeboat, if you were mismasted, rope around prop and drifting onto the rocks?

 

[Shorn100]

Re: Seacheck: not the thin end of a wedge

Escape's logic escapes me. Rogerw is right. Escape should refuse help from the Lifeboat on the basis that he is taking personal reponsibility for his crew. It will be his fault if something fails on his boat and he and his crew will have to take the consequences. Perhaps he should tell his crew that before he takes them afloat!

And does he really believe that by not having a voluntary check it will encourage the authorities not to introduce compulsory checks. IMHO, the exact opposite applies. Surely, they will take the opinion that yachtsmen are not responsible enough to take advantage of a free service and therefore an enforced system has to be introduced.

The RYA use the same reasoning for their Day Skipper, Coastal Skipper and Yachtmaster courses. Voluntary training is to be encouraged rather than us all having to pass a driving test. Can we assume that Escape and the others here that see Sea checks as the thin end of the wedge haven't had any training since it might lead to a driving test?

I believe it's encumbent on every one of us to take advantage of the Sea Check service. After 35 years of sailing, I realise more and more that I will never know it all and wil never stop learning new and useful information.

It's madness to let dogma risk your safety.

Shorn

 

[BlackSheep]

Escape from Reality...

I wish you well in your 'escape' - that's what I enjoy about sailing as well...but don't escape from reality...the RNLI, a FREE service offer Seacheck as a Free, voluntary service as food for thought, nothing more sinister. Of course you don't need to take up the offer, but I take it you also see their lifeboats as an intrusion into your solitude and you would no doubt refuse their interference if you were sinking or on fire etc etc ?!
Sailing IS one of the few activities that doesn't suffer from over regulation (at the moment), but it's a head in the sand attitude like this which is more likely to get big brother scribbling in his book of rules & regulations. It may sound like a paradox, but the longer we can self regulate, the longer Big brother will ignore us....

 

[milltech]

Re: I think I\'d refuse too

That's different of course, I wasn't knocking the idea just the pro-active intrusion.

John