Sea law concerning flag state

[kingsebi]

As some of you may know Germany legalized the possession and recreational use of marijuana a few months ago. As my boat is German flagged I understand it is German territory and thus my cat can smoke legally on board now. Not in port obviously, but at anchor. As long as the flag is up.

Does this reasoning make sense? It is what I gathered from hearsay along the years. I struggle to find serious sources concerning sea law. Could my cat get into trouble for smuggling/trafficking? Are the coastguards allowed to board my boat without my consent or only the customs? That is another question I have been wondering about for a long time.

 

[Graham376]

A coastal state can impose it's own rules on visiting boats (not passing through on innocent passage) and we've been boarded underway and at anchor by police and customs, a few times. I wouldn't risk carrying anything over a few rolls.

P.S. Google UNCLOS for laws of the sea

 

[dunedin]

No. This is a common misconception.
Rights of Innocent Passage in International waters generally stop once a boat enters port - or even a bay to anchor.
Nations can choose to enforce their laws over yachts and other vessels cruising in their waters, Sometimes they choose not to - eg often over safety equipment or licences. But that is a national choice.
Other laws like guns, drugs etc are generally enforced on all visiting vessels (but depends on local laws).
Don’t risk it. Particularly as officials are probably aware of the recent German law change, so may choose to search such vessels.
PS. And I don’t think the cat would be charged, but the skipper would.
PPS. You seem to have quite a lifestyle - or is the naked lady a figment of the cat’s maijuana smoke?

 

[kingsebi]

Ok thank you. I would never carry more than a few rolls anyway. So what I heard about the boat being territory of the flag state is not true after all. Too bad. It was a beautiful idea to have your own country.

 

[dunedin]

Ok thank you. I would never carry more than a few rolls anyway. So what I heard about the boat being territory of the flag state is not true after all. Too bad. It was a beautiful idea to have your own country.

It’s in the same category as “an Englishman’s home is his castle” - which equally doesn’t give exemption from most laws.

 

[kingsebi]

It’s in the same category as “an Englishman’s home is his castle” - which equally doesn’t give exemption from most laws.

When you read stories about the middle ages you get the impression it sometimes did.

Now that we are at it another question I keep hearing different opinions about. Where do the international waters start? 6 nautical miles? 12? And is there still someone who can enforce (which?) law there?

 

[dunedin]

When you read stories about the middle ages you get the impression it sometimes did

But the reason they needed the castles was the lack of any sensible laws or enforcement. Unfriendly neighbours tended to turn up, murder a few folk and make off with your cattle (and potentially your women folk). And the neighbours didn’t tend to respect the laws much if they got inside your castle either.
Some things are a little more civilised these days.

 

[colind3782]

The most important consideration is that the cat would be a pretty useless ratter after a few spliffs. I know I was!

 

[LittleSister]

I don't know why Graham 376 and yourself thinks 'carrying [just] a few rolls' would necessarily be different. It might, for all I'd know, often be overlooked or just get you a rap across the knuckles, but it could mean you lose your boat and your liberty, or get the inside of your boat ripped apart to see if you have a more serious amount hidden away somewhere.

 

[kingsebi]

I don't know why Graham 376 and yourself thinks 'carrying [just] a few rolls' would necessarily be different. It might, for all I'd know, often be overlooked or just get you a rap across the knuckles, but it could mean you lose your boat and your liberty, or get the inside of your boat ripped apart to see if you have a more serious amount hidden away somewhere.

You are right of course and I completely agree. I would not carry anything leaving Schengen (I’m an EU citizen on a EU flagged boat). Here I rarely get controlled and more rarely carry something. It’s just sometimes my cat wants to smoke a little and there is really no arguing with her

 

[AntarcticPilot]

When you read stories about the middle ages you get the impression it sometimes did.

Now that we are at it another question I keep hearing different opinions about. Where do the international waters start? 6 nautical miles? 12? And is there still someone who can enforce (which?) law there?

International waters start 12 miles outside the base line. The base line is usually a line joining major headlands and islands, but is the subject of international agreements in areas such as the Straits of Dover or the Channel Islands. So you can be a lot further than 12 miles from land and still be in national waters. Just for example, the Minch is entirely internal waters, but is subject to an international agreement with regard to shipping.

Inside the baseline - which means the vast majority of the waters most of us sail in - you are in internal waters, where the law is the law of the relevant nation, NOT the LOS. Most nations apply the LOS, but often with modifications. There is also a principle called comity, where a state accepts the regulations of the flag state of a vessel for specific things such as safety equipment.

Innocent passage only applies to a voyage that starts and ends outside national waters, and doesn't apply at all in internal waters.

A vessel is only regarded as an extension of the flag state when in international waters. But remember that there are international agreements with regard to recreational drugs!

 

[kingsebi]

But the reason they needed the castles was the lack of any sensible laws or enforcement. Unfriendly neighbours tended to turn up, murder a few folk and make off with your cattle (and potentially your women folk). And the neighbours didn’t tend to respect the laws much if they got inside your castle either.
Some things are a little more civilised these days.

You are right of course, but when you read for example the Marquis de Sade you get the impression they also needed privacy for other reasons. Much like megayachts in our times. I don’t think that things got much more civilised.

 

[kingsebi]

International waters start 12 miles outside the base line. The base line is usually a line joining major headlands and islands, but is the subject of international agreements in areas such as the Straits of Dover or the Channel Islands. So you can be a lot further than 12 miles from land and still be in national waters. Just for example, the Minch is entirely internal waters, but is subject to an international agreement with regard to shipping.

Inside the baseline - which means the vast majority of the waters most of us sail in - you are in internal waters, where the law is the law of the relevant nation, NOT the LOS. Most nations apply the LOS, but often with modifications. There is also a principle called comity, where a state accepts the regulations of the flag state of a vessel for specific things such as safety equipment.

Innocent passage only applies to a voyage that starts and ends outside national waters, and doesn't apply at all in internal waters.

A vessel is only regarded as an extension of the flag state when in international waters. But remember that there are international agreements with regard to recreational drugs!

Thank you. A very informative post. Is there a place in the internet where you can read the LOS?

 

[kingsebi]

No. This is a common misconception.
Rights of Innocent Passage in International waters generally stop once a boat enters port - or even a bay to anchor.
Nations can choose to enforce their laws over yachts and other vessels cruising in their waters, Sometimes they choose not to - eg often over safety equipment or licences. But that is a national choice.
Other laws like guns, drugs etc are generally enforced on all visiting vessels (but depends on local laws).
Don’t risk it. Particularly as officials are probably aware of the recent German law change, so may choose to search such vessels.
PS. And I don’t think the cat would be charged, but the skipper would.
PPS. You seem to have quite a lifestyle - or is the naked lady a figment of the cat’s maijuana smoke?

I know, always the skipper… a big responsibility.

Naked lady has nothing to do with my cat’s vices. On the other hand if my cat shared her stash they probably would have a smoke together. But my cat doesn’t share

 

[Wansworth]

The most important consideration is that the cat would be a pretty useless ratter after a few spliffs. I know I was!

My cats seem pretty out of it most of the time……on my bed

 

[Dellquay13]

I don’t know about Germany, but in the UK Cat owners are not liable for the actions of their Cats (as free agents) but are legally responsible for the actions of Dogs.
You could claim innocence of any ganga the cat brought onboard, but you’d cop it if the dog did the same.

 

[kingsebi]

I don’t know about Germany, but in the UK Cat owners are not liable for the actions of their Cats (as free agents) but are legally responsible for the actions of Dogs.
You could claim innocence of any ganga the cat brought onboard, but you’d cop it if the dog did the same.

That is really interesting. I have no idea if it’s like that in the German law. It might as well be as to my knowledge the animal laws originally come from Germany. Or more precisely from a failed Austrian painter who loved dogs and didn’t eat meat

 

[Refueler]

Comity of Flag is 'tolerated' as long as you don't contravene laws of the country you are in. Drugs / Guns / Drinking as example would soon show Comity is lost !!

I know from own experience.

 

[Graham376]

I don't know why Graham 376 and yourself thinks 'carrying [just] a few rolls' would necessarily be different. It might, for all I'd know, often be overlooked or just get you a rap across the knuckles, but it could mean you lose your boat and your liberty, or get the inside of your boat ripped apart to see if you have a more serious amount hidden away somewhere.

In most European countries, there's a big difference in having a roll or two for personal use, than having a larger quantity which would be treated very differently. Here in Portugal, smoking joints is allowed and even in the UK small quantities can be dealt with by cop on the street.

 

[LittleSister]

In most European countries, there's a big difference in having a roll or two for personal use, than having a larger quantity which would be treated very differently. Here in Portugal, smoking joints is allowed and even in the UK small quantities can be dealt with by cop on the street.

You miss my point entirely.